Rappelling El Capitan

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Shack

Big Wall climber

Reno NV

Aug 13, 2012 - 11:44pm PT

Would you guys be happier if they had to get rescued while climbing?
Does it make any difference to YOSAR?
Just curious.

climbski2

Mountain climber

Anchorage AK, Reno NV

Aug 13, 2012 - 11:47pm PT

Like I said fine em. They screwed up. But I don't see being so angry or resorting to calls of criminal negligence with severe risk to others.

But here is reality.

EVERY climb we do has REAL RISK. The biggest risk is that we (any of us) will do something we know better than to do. Find me someone who can honestly say they have never screwed up climbing and I will find you a liar or a complete noob.

I've talked to senators and panels about this. Pleading the case that it IS worthwhile to allow this freedom at the cost to taxpayer dollars.

We have a Coast guard and guess what they rescue morons every day. Saving and helping people is about the best thing you can get a chance to do in life. Usually it means helping folks that screwed up. We ALL screw up and regardless it's a damn fine thing to know that someone cares and someone will help.

I was a volunteer for years and gladly went on every callout I could. Usually had a blast and loved doing it.

The only regrets I have are the ones picking up pieces and looking for torso's and teeth. Yet even there it helps to know that you are bringing some great comfort to the families of a tragic situation.

So I'm not too mad at these guys. If I had never screwed up perhaps I would be. I have been very fortunate that my screwups never ended up in a serious injury or rescue.. But it's a fact that i was lucky.

The cost of rescues like these is merely the cost of being human.. and showing humanity.

The day that our society can no longer accept these costs is the day we might as well nuke ourselves.

Shack

Big Wall climber

Reno NV

Aug 13, 2012 - 11:51pm PT

Werner only encouraged these guys because he wanted the overtime.

Shack

Big Wall climber

Reno NV

Aug 13, 2012 - 11:54pm PT

How much do you wanna bet they use the "Werner said it was OK" defense in court?

this just in

climber

north fork

Aug 13, 2012 - 11:54pm PT

Cragman isn't sar your willful choice?

Being so quick to prosecute and sue has become a shame of our country.

climbski2

Mountain climber

Anchorage AK, Reno NV

Aug 13, 2012 - 11:56pm PT

Unless a person is unconcious every action they take is willful. So every one of us is guilty of willfully doing stupid sh#t that could have hurt others.. Why? Because we climb..and climbing is risky... mistakes happen and someone else might have to come where we are and help.. no way around that

case closed

A rescuer who descends into unstable slopes is a freaking idiot.. he should be held more responsible than the idiot he was trying to rescue.

Why cause he DAMNWELL should know better.

THAT is the first rule of SAR

this just in

climber

north fork

Aug 13, 2012 - 11:59pm PT

Pretty judgemental for your background there cragman. Wwjd. :-)

climbski2

Mountain climber

Anchorage AK, Reno NV

Aug 14, 2012 - 12:12am PT

No one can afford to hire YOSAR.

Helicopters Personel, Training on and on.

SAR personel are never paid what they are worth either.

But if ever the case could be made for the purpose of a government and the paying of taxes that is therefore required it is this.

To preserve Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness for their citizens.

Rescuing climbers hits dead center on all three.

I once made that exact argument to a Senator looking to hit climbers hard on Denali.

I saw in the Senators face his respect for this argument. It made a difference.

climbski2

Mountain climber

Anchorage AK, Reno NV

Aug 14, 2012 - 12:19am PT

CRAGMAN you do most certainly make valid points as mentioned above. You were right from the get go on this thread in being the first reply to the OP

You've seen some terrible stuff due to these type of things. My thought is this. Give me liberty or give me death is no idle boast. The cost is VERY real.

I simply feel that these risks are part of the cost and risks of a free society. No intent to harm was exhibited. No malice,

Just an overbearing sense of adventure beyond ones capabilities... a failure of judgement for sure. On an Epic scale unfortunately.

But a misdemeanor.. not a Felony

A fine perhaps but not the full cost.

Peter Haan

Trad climber

San Francisco, CA

Aug 14, 2012 - 12:35am PT

Climbski, I like your points. Very well done and thanks. Fair and wise. Cragman has spent a ton of time in SAR, law enforcement and other kooky situations---he is even a builder---and so of course he tends to get unhappy when stupidity takes the day. That's all it is. Were he face to face with these rappelling noobies on the Nose, he would have been a gentleman

this just in

climber

north fork

Aug 14, 2012 - 12:44am PT

No, I think cragman would of called them morons, slapped on the handcuffs and told them they were being prosecuted for willfully endangering his life. I could be wrong though.

10b4me

Ice climber

dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel

Aug 14, 2012 - 12:58am PT

have to agree with Cragman. not only did they waste YOSAR time, and money. they put other people in jeopardy.

crasic

climber

Aug 14, 2012 - 01:05am PT

Werner encouraged them to do this.

He also assumed they had a brain. Going off route at least once on a long rappel route in unfamiliar terrain is practically expected, and its not like jugging your rappel to restart is something extraordinary for a climber/rappeler to know. The fact that they weren't prepared for either indicates they either didn't have a brain or didn't use it.

Not that most of us (I assume) aren't guilty of this as well, I know the first time I rappelled ever I didn't know how to jug back up, but it was a one pitch on low-angled terrain with experienced partners, not during an attempt to rappel the largest granite monolith in the world.

If YOSAR wasn't there they would have been dead.

climbski2

Mountain climber

Anchorage AK, Reno NV

Aug 14, 2012 - 01:09am PT

One of the drawbacks to forums is that the written word can make things a bit too strong.

I regret directly debating Cragman. Having met in person and also enjoying his great TRs I really know he's a great guy. Someone I feel privileged to have met and look forward to doing some climbing with in the future.

I am passionate about rescues being a taxpayer funded critical service. I am passionate about the freedom to climb without a whole bunch restrictions or fees on public lands. Meaning that.. yep we as a society pay for the inevitable screwups that will happen.

I suppose this is my point. Freedom has a price and while this was an avoidable incident in particular as most are.. if society allows climbing then incidents like this are the unavoidable cost. The only way to keep from paying these costs is to outlaw climbing and basically FREEDOM. I hope we are willing to bear the cost of freedom and the cost of helping people who make mistakes. I have done so and would be ashamed not to. I expect my society and my nation to be better than me.

We all screw up and we all need help sometimes. Lie to yourself if you will

Is that to much?

golsen

Social climber

kennewick, wa

Aug 14, 2012 - 01:12am PT

These guys willfully endangered everyone involved....themselves, anyone on the wall, and SAR.

They should be prosecuted.

I find this whole conversation rather interesting. In 1993 my partner and I attempted the nose for the first time. My Partners first big wall, and our first attempt at El Cap, and we tried it in a day. We rapped from the end of the great roof all the way down (weather sucked). I suppose that if we needed help that you could say we were out of our element, i suppose you could say we should be prosecuted (me living in Kansas at the time). But we had everything except a bolt kit to facilitate our retreat. On second thought I should have carried more hand tied runners as I was getting close to cutting our rope to back up jingus rapp stations.

Face it, getting rescued in Yosemite seems to be the expectation instead of the exception.

Climbers (not just these rappellers) have lost their sense of self sufficiency.

But because they were going down and not up does not justify their crucifixion.

Get rid of SAR and let nature take over if you have a problem with it.....People will learn fast or die. But I assure you the NPS will take all kinds of heat for such an approach.

crasic

climber

Aug 14, 2012 - 02:33am PT

Face it, getting rescued in Yosemite seems to be the expectation instead of the exception.

And, personally, I think this is a great thing. That doesn't mean we shouldn't set a minimum threshold for negligence.

Every great epic starts with getting into a situation you aren't prepared for and then using your creativity and perseverance to get out of it, if you get hopelessly f*#ked you call for help and then hope for the best.

The problem here is that the situation they got into wasn't something strange or out of the ordinary, its a basic issue for those that need to long rappels in unfamiliar terrain. It should have been expected.

Someone who plans for two days on the wall and gets stranded for a week and needs rescue due to lack of water supplies isn't considered negligent, the guy who knows he's spending two days on the wall and brings no water or food and then asks for rescue on the other hand...

We shouldn't be discouraging people for asking for help when they need it (which charging for rescue would accomplish), but we should be discouraging woefully unprepared people from getting into situations that will, most likely, require rescue. As the sport becomes more popular, this will become a bigger problem and its best to implement a system now to combat this.

All of this reminds me of a report from ANAM 2000 were some dude with no mountaineering experience tries to solo Denali (complete with 2-by-4's as crevasse crossing gear) and, predictably, gets dragged off the mountain when he gets stuck at 19,000. A basic sanity check on his permit application would have prevented the massive waste of resources, inconvenience to other parties (who trianed for years to be there), and extreme danger to the rescue crew.

Big Mike

Trad climber

Aug 14, 2012 - 02:34am PT

Seems to me ascending a rope should be common knowledge for every climber. My first time doing it was in Skaha on Slow Pitch.

We tried to pull the rope to no avail so the only choice was going back up. We had no cordalette, but had slings and knew how to make prussics. He tried to ascend the rope but couldn't figure out the proper setup, and after a bit of thrashing slid back to the belay.

So the task was left to me, and I was promised a fat reward when I returned to the belay. I figured out if I clipped in short to my belay loop with the lower prussic I could keep my progress and ascend with the upper prussic/sling. I made it to the top and the quicklinks had pinched the rope. I set it up better and tested it to make sure it would pull good this time. It pulled when I got back to the belay and we got the heck outta dodge.

justthemaid

climber

Jim Henson's Basement

Aug 14, 2012 - 09:10am PT

Amazing incident.

Hardly amazing. Just stoopid/silly IMO. Totally called it. Werner made the fatal flaw of assuming people have a modicum of intelligence or some basic skills. Everyone in the universe makes mistakes. Some just do it more publicly than others.

A fine for the rescue is appropriate. Glad they are OK and hope they acquire some damn jumars and practice jugging and hauling for the next time. Nothing wrong with having a hair-brained idea as long as you have the skills to get yourself out of trouble.

Hell.. it gave SAR something to do. Otherwise they just sit around eating bon-bons and watching housewife reality shows.;)

Prod

Trad climber

Aug 14, 2012 - 09:34am PT

First off Werner did not encourage this activity.

He said

Any competent well round climber can do it, rappel the Nose.

Piss easy.

Grossman used to do it for booty hunting.

Yer all wankers for trying to blow this guy off .....

2ndly he asked for advice

I am not a stranger to multi pitch climbing or rappels but still want to see if anyone has more info or advice since it isn't a common endeavor.

none of us gave it to him. Pretty much everyone made fun of him. Except Cragman who came right out and predicted the outcome in the 2nd post BRAVO!!!!

Don't do it.

You come to ST and the very first thing you post is about rappelling arguably the best free climb in the world?

Go back to the gym, and practice your rappelling there....YOSAR has enough to do.

Guess someone should have said, If I were going to do this I'd bring.....

Prod.