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jstan
climber
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Some of us climbed when there generally was no one around other than the two people climbing. That being the case I don't know what others did in those days. For my own part I STFU when my partner was tying in and preparing to climb. That's not a good time to ask them also to carry on a conversation.
Crowd climbing has its own special danger. Mind you this was not universally appreciated even during the 60's. I once had a second who was trying to converse while I was at a hard move. My request for quiet was not appreciated.
I know it is not the general practice today to be quiet while someone is climbing. Climbing has become just another social interaction.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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The one and a half fisherman's bend is my go to tie-in. It is a wonderful way to tie in when you don't plan on getting air time. It is a very clean knot, very solid, easy to finish, has a low profile, and is easy to assess as to whether it has been correctly tied or not.
Skcreidc, the example you have there has to many turns on both sides of the knot. Use an overhand on one end and a double fisherman's, or grapevine, on the other.
With climbs I plan on getting air, I use the bowline with an overhand or fisherman's keeper.
Learned both from the '72 Chouinard catalog. http://climbaz.com/chouinard72/chouinard.html
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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interesting thread, but everyone knows that "climbing isn't safe" even though we seem to survive doing it...
one of the accidents I was involved in this last spring could probably have been avoided if I had asked a simple question of my leader: "don't you think you should put another piece of pro in?"
I didn't ask it because the leader was experienced, the climb was not technically difficult, and we both are generally quiet while the other is climbing.
While I am not sure that asking that question would have changed anything, I should have asked it...
vis-a-vis the OP, if you're tying in you've got a partner, it's not a bad habit for the partner to just ask "what does your knot look like?" before letting the leader launch off on the first pitch. Any time your partner ties in you might just ask that simple question.
I now do it in the gym, it can be freaky for the climber, but at least we both get to look at the knot and make sure it's finished, and certainly that it looks like a correct knot. It doesn't much matter which knot it is if it's tied correctly.
Having two pairs of eyes check is a good way of making sure. And it may seem somewhat "uncool," but it is mostly not cool to spend so much time in the hospital and in physical therapy recovering from the consequences of not having finished the knot if you're so lucky to have that opportunity.
Bottom line: just ask your partner to show you what they tied in with before you put them on belay.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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tagain and again,
redundancy
Pre flight check list:
check that your partner is tied in.
check that you are tied in.
is the belay safe?
the gear multi directional?
do your own check, ask that question,
communicate
do not let your partnerleave the ground or belay
with out the Heads up "Did you check your knot?"
A light grab on the harness and a" hey that looks...."
has saved lives
be the best risk manager and...". stop ((check the tie in points)) drop((hold and let go of the anchor points, as a light tug,visual check , physical check))and then roll((climb on))
rinse and repeat!
the grape vine tie in, is old school European. It was used when chest wrap harnesses were worn.and the leader did not fall.
The knot is fine and simple. It does weld and freeze((not prone to coming loose)) It can be evaluated at a glance.
the idea of standardizing the knots and Dis-use of the various types of rigging came with the mainstreaming of the sport.((80~85?))
Learning the Ropes to keep yourself alive took a turn and for the good................. K.I.S.S. Keep it simple ((st00pid))
One Main tie in knot: the follow thru figure8
What knot is best for any given situation can lead to much debate.
For working a route a knot that can be untied after repetitive loading is desirable.
When following, going second after a wait, CHECK your tie in! make it tight, whatever knot you use.
I can remember when some of the old timers at the Mountain House used Grape vines, over hands and square knots.
Using a 'Larks Head' tie in?for the middle of a three climber party? yikes!!
My first trip up Lake View(5.4) was in such a group with a Krist.R. and a Hans K.
I am sure that I was safely tied in. As a precocious youth I was proud to show off my skill and knot knowledge and tied an in line figure 8 on a line.Mrs. Raubenhiemer was quick to point out that the knot was better for mountain travel with rope coils over the shoulder,and that the simple girth hitch (larks head or clove)) was fine for the person climbing second in a party of three!?
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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This is a cool and informative thread. Sorry about the drift, but I appreciate the feedback.
Mark Force said Skcreidc, the example you have there has to many turns on both sides of the knot. Use an overhand on one end and a double fisherman's, or grapevine, on the other.
Thanks for the info and correcting me on how to tie it. I was trying to do it from memory and I wasn't quite sure; I've only been useing the figure 8. My friend says the overhand with a grapevine comes apart easier when the rope is frozen up after ice climbing and after taking a fall, so it is interesting to hear the opposite.
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Miltdawg
Trad climber
Louisville, CO
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I switched to the double Bowline knot to tie into my harness years(10+) ago after not being able to untie my figure8 knot after a big fall. It was a friends rope and I nearly had to cut the f*#ker to get the 8 off my harness. INSTEAD of following the end through the DB-Bowline(like WheeliePete suggest in his video...) and ending up with a cumbesome "stopper" knot above the Bowline(that gets in the way sometimes), I use the "stopper" knot below the Bowline on the loop and cinch it up tight to the bottom of the DB-Bowline. Now your tail gets tucked into your harness along side the loop of rope and you never have to see the tail while your climbing. This makes a much smaller knot than the 8 with a back-up or the DB-Bowline with the "stopper" knot on the top. I can tie or untie this knot with my eyes closed and it is very quick and easy. As with any knot, tightening each leg of the knot if very important. Figure 8 has 4 legs to tighten and the Bowline has only 3 legs...
People will leave the starter 8 on the end of the rope for courtesy and I will untie it and tie the DB-Bowline because that's what I'm used to now. Tying a figure 8 is a pain in the ass and I believe there is a proper way to dress the figure 8 KNOT(that takes extra time). Just "following through" any old way is improper! Your life line should always be the bottom of the figure 8 knot. So when you fall, your lifeline cinch's the entire 8. 95% of people I see tie the 8, do not know this fact and do not dress the 8 properly. Usually their lifeline is NOT the bottom of the 8 but the next level up from the bottom of the 8. NOW, when loading the lifeline, the bottom of the 8 doesn't do jack sh#t and it really isn't a proper figure 8 at all...
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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I use the double knotted bowline as seen in Mark Force's pic on the previous page from the Chouinard catalog, and I think what miltdawg is describing. It's sooo much easier to untie after being weighted, and faster for me to tie, vs an 8.
Unless I'm climbing with folks used to the rewoven 8 and ill sometimes use that so they can inspect it / make them feel comfortable.
I've never used the Yosemite finish because it makes it hard to inspect the bowline and I don't like messing with the integrity of the bowline but putting another rope into it.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Dec 10, 2014 - 04:10pm PT
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All you guys bitching about figure 8's getting too tight when you fall on them
Fall too much.
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F10
Trad climber
Bishop
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Dec 10, 2014 - 04:52pm PT
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After ditching the bowline on a coil and switching to a swami I started using the one and a half fishermans to tie in. After all it was in the Chouinard catalog. Decades later I started using the Double Bowline with a fisherman back up. Not sure about the Yosemite bowline, never used it.
It has never let me down, and is easy to untie after being weighted.
Above all, double check what ever you do !!
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