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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 28, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
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Fattass said:
Norton how is your back today???? You must be taking one of your perscriptions.
Why don't you shut your God Damn mouth
so stupid can't spell "prescriptions"
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 28, 2012 - 01:49pm PT
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yosguns,
The court obviously recognizes some limit on governmental power. The right to privacy, which is nowhere enumerated in the Constitution, but was found to be in its penumbra in Roe v. Wade, is one of those.
For example, if congress decided that abortions affect interstate commerce, which they doubtless do at least as much as the wheat that never left the farm did in Wickard v. Filburn, they still couldn't regulate it, because doing so would run into the absolute prohibition enunciated in Roe v. Wade. The Commerce Clause doesn't trump that protection.
My problem with her logic (and that of the dissent in Citizens United )is that congressional powers did seem to trump explicit constitutional prohibitions, such as enacting a law abridging freedom of speech.
Since Ginsburg's dissent finds the Commerce Clause essentially unlimited, her views make it very difficult to predict what is and isn't constitutional. It's as if we're left with the Potter Stewart definition of unprotected pornographic speech, i.e. "I know it when I see it." This offers citizens scant protection from governmental overreach.
John
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jun 28, 2012 - 01:50pm PT
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Why do sole proprietors, the people pushing business forward through their motivation to succeed, have to pay more in taxes than a payrolled employee?
That doesn't seem right.
I incur no costs upon the government. (meaning no handouts) I'm fine with taxes, but it does seem kind of unfair to hit the self employed guy harder than the person who clocks in and clocks out, leaving work at work. I'm stuck taking work home with me, designs, materials pricing, bookkeeping, follow ups with clients, etc.
Let's say that you have a child, with a debilitating illness.
You are done, financially. All your work is lost, for the rest of your life.
But we have an insurance system against such things, called "Regional Centers", that are set up to take care of such cases.
If you fall while climbing, and break your arms and legs, you will lose your business, and will not be able to feed or cloth or shelter yourself..
But we have an insurance system against such things, that will give you housing vouchers, food stamps, etc.
We have a system that protects us against catastrophe, and it is funded through taxation.
I'm happy to have the protection. I hope NEVER to use it....just as is true for most types of insurance.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 28, 2012 - 01:51pm PT
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It was John Roberts that cast the deciding vote. That's damn important.
He's got balls, I'll give him that.
I dunno, the decision pretty much earned the insurance companies billions of dollars. The main reason Republicans have been against it (remember it was modeled on GOP Romney's plan) is just to defeat Obama.
Bush pushed through a prescription drug plan that cost plenty and another gift to insurance companies
PEace
Karl
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Jun 28, 2012 - 01:53pm PT
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Social Security will be going BK
Much in the same way SCOTUS will strike down Obamacare.
Curt
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jun 28, 2012 - 01:53pm PT
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KenM,
We are all very fortunate that you are no longer in the practice of medicine.
smooch!
By that, I suppose that you mean that you like that I'm now an influencial policy maker, and bring my liberal credentials to the table where health care policy is created.
Thanks!
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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Jun 28, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 28, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
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How is it possible for Fattrad to any more wrong?
He is THE single best "fade" on the planet
Social Security will be going BK
Much in the same way SCOTUS will strike down Obamacare.
Curt
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jun 28, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
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… One view is to make all procedures available everywhere. The other, increasingly prevalent view, is to concentrate those procedures into "centers of excellence", where they do a LOT of them. Beyond question, centers that do a lot of procedures have consistently much better outcomes than places that do them occasionally
That has absolutely no bearing on anything in my post. Anytime I have needed specialized care I have gone to a center of excellence. Where do I argue against that?
That would be where you said:
I have been told BY DOCTORS in Britain that not only is this procedure not available there ("...I think if someone qualifies for that we send them to Sweden")
What was the point of the words that you wrote? Pretty clearly, that Britain was all f-up because they exported their procedure.
(although the sources "that you trust" state quite clearly that they don't know. Duh.)
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jun 28, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
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You think Fatty's talking out both sides of his head now, wait til November........
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yosguns
climber
Durham, NC
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Jun 28, 2012 - 02:06pm PT
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Got it, thanks for spelling that out.
Since Ginsburg's dissent finds the Commerce Clause essentially unlimited, her views make it very difficult to predict what is and isn't constitutional. It's as if we're left with the Potter Stewart definition of unprotected pornographic speech, i.e. "I know it when I see it." This offers citizens scant protection from governmental overreach.
But, I mean, it's dicta? Important dicta...but dicta, nonetheless.
A friend has written that it can't be thrown out as mere dicta (e.g.: Jackson concurrence in Youngstown); it does matter. However, same friend has the opposite concern: the dissent was a blow to the Commerce Clause (i.e.: the power under it was reined in).
I mean, what would not have been a blow to the CC would have been to find that the Act was constitutional under it. No?
The opinion: National Federation of Independent Business
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jun 28, 2012 - 02:07pm PT
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I know about MRIs, way more than the average person. My point, perhaps not well stated, was that they blew him off despite his efforts to get attention.
I recently had my left shoulder MRId. The report did not look good, but the orthopedic surgeon looked at it and at me and pronounced it to be bunk, got me in with a good P/T, and the results are excellent. On the other hand in 2004 I had the other shoulder MRId and when the same doctor looked at it he said I had no option other than surgery. The result is a great shoulder. That is what I called good health care, and not what my brother got. I’ve had long conversations with him and his situation is not unique.
So what you are saying, in your own experience, is that the orthopod in the recent situation, overcame the MRI with his experience.
If you had NOT GOTTEN an MRI, you would have come out the same.
Since you understand MRI's, what do you think of their accuracy compared to an arthrogram?
Your point about being blown off....think about this.....has NOTHING TO DO with the availability of MRI's, or even the health care system. It has to do with specific practitioners, and what they did....and then you are extrapolating it to the entire country. Not reasonable.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jun 28, 2012 - 02:10pm PT
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does this mean if you don't have your yearly Obama Barium Enema, you may be jailed? Jailed if don't submit to an enema?
Show a link from the bill that states this
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 28, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
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Yes, it's dicta, and its a dissenting opinion besides. My point is that this view of constitutional jurisprudence, if it ever became the majority view, would endanger civil liberties. The fact that it's only one SCOTUS appointment away from being the majority view worries me.
John
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jun 28, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
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Fatty - you do a lot of name dropping, some of which I suspect violates client confidences. I am not a money guy so I may be wrong, maybe you folks have no ethics code to follow? or you could be making it all up?
I am glad the ACA was decided legally and not politically. I am skeptical it it will do much to solve a problem of our own making. We screwed the proverbial pooch when we thought free market principles were a good idea for health care. Corporations with shareholders must pay a dividend or appreciate in stock value quarter after quarter. Apple, Google, IBM and the like do it through innovation and good management. Snooze you lose, Kodak is a good example. Health care providers on the other hand just jack up the cost of services to create more value. This business model is not sustainable. With health care at 20% of our economy the corporations are now TO BIG TO FAIL!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 28, 2012 - 02:20pm PT
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Jon,
We started to remove medical care from market forces when we tied it to employment in World War II.
I'm a little confused about the comment of the law being decided legally rather than politically. Hasn't the SCOTUS done the opposite? By upholding the law (well, much of it), the law is now squarely in the political arena only.
John
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yosguns
climber
Durham, NC
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Jun 28, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
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John, the dicta definitely matters. And, you're right. I'm looking at the dissent now. I didn't understand that Ginsburg found the Act constitutional under the Commerce Clause, even though that's the first thing she wrote. ;-)
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jun 28, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
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Ken, you're like a little dog with a sock...
Your point about being blown off....think about this.....has NOTHING TO DO with the availability of MRI's, or even the health care system. It has to do with specific practitioners, and what they did....and then you are extrapolating it to the entire country. Not reasonable.
The situation with my brother, his family, and health care in France is way deeper than I will go into on an internet forum. Sorry this is not a real campfire. I tried to use his experience as an example, said in a later post that I probably did not state it well, and still you try to discredit me while avoiding any of the actual points of my original post.
What kind of access do you predict for a healthy 60 year climber paying the "tax" for a knee or shoulder repair in 15 years with a sports specialist? Will a 50+ year old man with an inoperable brain avm be fast tracked into treatment with the latest cutting edge technology?
Those were my original questions. Don't just write them off as "scare tactics." They are legitimate questions. We have all just been told we must participate in a care system which will have as its primary focus obesity, diabetes and related largely self inflicted disorders. We all will be paying in for preventive care we as individuals may never need, but what about when our unique crisis comes?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jun 28, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
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I wonder how many of the vehemently anti-healthcare posters have ever actually travelled outside the US? You know, to countries like Germany, Canada, Belgium, and Norway that are bankrupt hellholes because of socialized medicine?
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