Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Happydraggin'
climber
PHX
|
|
I must be as dumb as my hammer but no one seems to have dispelled zardoz's original notion that clipping the end of the daisy itself (not(!) a non-runner strength insert, bar tack or additional short loop) ought to work just fine without a clove hitch. I don't see the issue and am now feeling concerned since I have done this (e.g., clipped the end of the daisy itself, actually two separate daisies each girth hitched through my harness with separate biners attached to the anchors) without incident for many years and I don't see the BD video as telling me that I shouldn't continue my current practice; however, the video does highlight the issues with non-runner strength materials, bar tacks, short loops and the like that have long been understood to be potentially deadly. Thoughts (other than to go learn from my hammer)?
|
|
ADK
climber
truckee
|
|
The issue is when you double clip two pockets. Lets say you have a locking biner attached to the end loop in your daisy and you decide you want to be a little closer to the anchor. So you clip another loop of the daisy into the locking biner to hoist yourself a little closer. If the stiching blows out between the pockets, and you havent put a twist in the chain before clipping the second loop, youre going for a long ride.
When Im free climbing, I tie in with the rope. When Im aid climbing I tie in with the rope and adjust height with the daisy in the dangerous method but I have a backup always.
|
|
cintune
climber
Penn's Woods
|
|
There's always the Purcell prusik.
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
Clipping the last loop in the daisy and then clipping a pocket in The wrong way is the same as clipping two pockets the wrong way, unless the end loop tack is much stronger than the standard daisy loop tacks.
You can convince yourself of this easily with some tape and a sling.
|
|
scuffy b
climber
The town that Nature forgot to hate
|
|
Welcome back, dirtineye. Are you up and about? I'm using "your"
knot for my shoes more frequently now, often on one shoe while
tying a "double" knot on the other shoe. Data trickle in very
slowly.
In other news, I'm just learning about using daisy chains
(but not fifis)
sm
|
|
philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
|
Russ I know what you are saying and I agree. I am only saying that friction of nylon on nylon is a very real risk probably more so than a pocket blowing out from shock loading an improperly adjusted daisy. BUT, the constant wear and tear at the cinched tie-in is a potential and usually un-noticed failure point. You don't lower someone by running the rope only through a piece of webbing. That should be obvious. But what probably isn't so clear is how much damage occurs little by little to regularly loaded girthed or cinched webbing material. My original post was just to say that by eliminating that weakness
you inherently improve the safety of the system. Manufactures clearly state that girth hitching or clove hitching webbing redices the inherent strength by 50%. Why compromise the system before it even gets put to the test? I hope this clarifys my earlier (somewhat off topic post).
For the record I use a daisy as a personal safety teather only never for critical uses like anchoring.
Also for the record your wall gear has always been the greatest! Thanx.
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
Hi Scuffy b, glad you are having fun with those shoe knots.
One more point--half the strength of the daisy via clove hitch is way better than the zero strength you get from clipping wrong and ripping out the stitches.
|
|
rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
Apr 24, 2010 - 08:22pm PT
|
ever since this thread and the BD video came out I've been using the "overhand on last loop" system. works great for me, nothing to buy. Just make sure the locker is always going through the tied off loop on the end. You can then clip short anywhere without compromising security.
|
|
JBC
Trad climber
Tacoma, WA
|
|
|
Apr 26, 2010 - 11:24pm PT
|
What about the old Wild Things daisy? Each pocket was 'full strength' with a long loop for hitching to the harness. I still have one, although at it's age it is way overdue for retirement. The one limitation is that the pockets were directional.
|
|
willie!!!!!
Trad climber
99827
|
|
|
Apr 26, 2010 - 11:56pm PT
|
My buddy has an exploding backpack that apparently foolproofs avalanches!!!!
What if there was one for climbing with compressed helium that was clipped into the belayers harness (double lockers, of course) that had an altitude regression trigger!?
You fall on a misrigged daisy and next thing you know you've got your finger on the gas release, scanning for an LZ!
|
|
Decko
Trad climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2010 - 04:35pm PT
|
It's real simple actually, don't use Daisy Chains to anchor yourself to the anchor......
|
|
willie!!!!!
Trad climber
99827
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2010 - 04:39pm PT
|
LOL! Thanks, Rokjox.
I guess that settles that. I'll have to pay attention to my systems.
Pate - I'm sure they do work, cliff bands not included. I was just being ridiculous regarding "foolproofing".
|
|
cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2010 - 06:17pm PT
|
The downhaul on my windsurfer offers a possible solution. 2 double pulleys with 6mm cord, in a block and tackle setup tweaked to work as a daisy, offer a 4:1 mechanical advantage with infinite adjustability and it can be easily adjusted under full load. You could smoothy haul yourself right up to your placement.
If one designed a cord with a static inner core just strong enough for regular aiding but meant to fail in a fall; and a very dynamic outer core and sheath to absorb the fall, it could catch falls on insecure placements.
Here're some windsurfer downhall blocks offering even greater mechanical advantage:
http://www.windance.com/downhaul-3-roller-hook-pulley-pr-3115.html
Blocks with closed eyes instead of hooks and closed eyes for each pulley would be better for climbing.
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2010 - 06:39pm PT
|
If you are belaying your primary connection should be the rope, built in shock absorbtion, nothing else to carry.
If you are off rope at an anchor while rapping/changing rope ends on a free climb I'd rather uses a sling or two instead of carrying a daisy chain for this one purpose.
If you are doing rescue, via ferrata, etc and want a shock absorbing connection you could get a lanyarnd
The only time I seem to need a regular daisy is jugging (I prefer an adjustable for aid leading). You want a full stength and adjustable connection to the rope that's light. But it not even really designed for that because a fall will blow out the pockets.
It seems if people can't figure out how to clip into a daisy correctly to prevent blowing out of it, trying to make it more fool proof may be encouraging people to use it in a manner that it's not really intented for (it's intended for aid climbing not anchoring). Sure you can use it to connect to the anchor but should we be encouraging folks to do this if they need a specialy designed daisy to do it right?
|
|
Forest
Trad climber
Denver, CO
|
|
|
Apr 27, 2010 - 09:25pm PT
|
Is 3' of rope really all that dynamic?
Personally, I've always girth hitched a locking carabiner to the end of my daisy.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!