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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Well put, Kevin, but I think you missed one possibility: Doing a FA and not telling anoyone. I suspect plenty of us have been guilty of that at one time or another.
John
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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All I know is California needs another run out 5.9 slab like I need a hole in my head.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Ha! Please feel free to use it, If I bolt up a slab it will be to the OP's liking.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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I'd be honored Warbler.
The Bishop's Peak death routes are pretty easy to TR, I've climbed some of them and I sure as hell didn't do it on lead.
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JoJo229
climber
west
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2012 - 12:40am PT
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@toad: I don't live on the central coast, I live in the central sierra
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Communism, CAPITALISM, and Bolting ethics sometimes exist as pure theory but their practice is always different, and usually not living up to the theory.
Reality shows us that Community consensus (another illusion actually) rules. This means if there is someone in the community who feels strong enough about a retro-bolt to chop it, then the bolts get chopped. The community might also diss you without chopping your retro-bolt if they are lazy, tolerant, or have too much weed.
Sometimes there's a guy who needs hangers who finds religion suddenly.
Consulting the FA party is laudable, but sometimes the bolt gets chopped anyway. Steck approved of the now-gone bolt on the crux of East Butt of El Cap.
and yet the retro-bolt on one of the easiest free pitches on the Nose has remained for years?!! Sometime convenience and/or obscurity dictate whether a retro-bolt is left or not. You might get away with adding bolts to some apron obscurity but some well known classic? never! Unless it's a really long approach, or way up some clean wall.
Who the retro-bolter is matters too. Out of towners get dissed even if they don't retro-bolt. Sometimes a guy can't even retro his own route without chopping but some can and have.
Usually there's a drill Sargent who appoints himself to guard an area so it's the luck of the draw whether Sarge hears of the offense and cares to do something about it.
The community changes over the years so the way we keep history and the values/demography/whatever of future generations are going to do what they will, erase all bolts or retro super trad areas. Like it or not, A lot has changed already.
The sure sign of an old codger is dissing the current generation of climbers as pussies, even as they are soloing Half Dome and the West Face of El Cap
Not endorsing anything here, just sayin how it is.
Peace
Karl
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JoJo229
climber
west
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2012 - 03:02am PT
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Agree. Show me a perceived community consensus and I'll show you a loud and judgmental minority
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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O.K. JoJo, show me a majority in favor of retro bolting a route. I get the illogic of the FAist forever dictating the future of a route, and I now understand having kids and not wanting to get killed climbing-- I really do. But it's just how this game is played.
Me, I think the problem is that folks that are too worried about getting killed are not willing to put in the work to climb well protected routes at a reasonable grade. There are tons of trad routes in the 5.9-5.10 range that are fun and well protected. Do the work and have fun.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Karl, I agree that the consensus will change with the times and already has (and that the "consensus" may just be theory). And that this blog, thread only represents a small minority of the climbing "community" as a whole. I appreciate all forms of climbing and try not to judge anyone in there endeavor, but wouldn't it be a shame if those diverse styles and histories disappear into a homogeneous jello, devoid of difference, with rounded edges and gift wrapped for the masses?
It's nice to take the zen approach but I think we all have our pets. What if your beloved Galactic Hitchhiker was altered in any way, made harder or easier or whatever? In other words, how would you feel if the climb was altered?
Some might say that growing older (codger or whatever) makes us wiser but maybe we just get tired of caring as we get older. Who knows....but as long as people exercise the human trait of caring about anything, there will be debate whether it concerns politics, the arts or whatever. Even climbing.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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What if your beloved Galactic Hitchhiker was altered in any way, made harder or easier or whatever? In other words, how would you feel if the climb was altered?
Funny you should use that example. I did the second and some subsequent ascents of Hitchhiker but the guys who put it up did so in style that would have been very controversial back in the day. The worked from the top down some (I heard) and from the bottom up. The result is a route that's very well protected up higher but has some spicy sections in the middle that the FA party had intended to bolt tighter but never got around to it.
I was in touch with them and they told me their intents to add bolts and that I could too add to bolts on the Olympic Wall (middle of Hitchhiker) it's silly to have such a well bolted line 90% of the way and but then have a tricky 5.10 mantle with a dangerous fall planted in the middle of it.
I'd have added bolts for sure if I wasn't lazy and in a hurry to finish dozens of pitches in a day. That's the one climb, if I ever retro-bolt anything in my life, it will be the mantle on Galactic Hitchhiker. I think the FA party spent a lot of time on the route and didn't feel like going back for more bolting or even a one day ascent.
But that's just a story. I wasn't saying how anything "SHOULD" be, just how it is
I'm against war, racism and all kinds of things that I can still talk about in practical terms
Peace
karl
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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donini's remark about the natural line of rock is well taken--if you live in places where there's lots of good rock. close to los angeles, there wouldn't be much climbing going on without bolting.
the case in point is williamson rock. it was climbed early by sierra club rock climbers, even before they started going out to tahquitz. williamson might have 3 or 4 long lines where you could put pitons or chocks into a crack--a very crack-poor species of granite. but when bolting came along, williamson was reborn as a climbing venue--something like 300 routes--and it quickly became the favored close-in crag for los angeles.
i've never sunk a bolt myself and only have a handful of serious FAs, none of which will give me guidebook immortality. for some reason, i just haven't felt the need for it--there has always been plenty of challenge for me in established climbing.
i was exploring a small, for some reason ignored, canyon on the east side with my daughter a few years back. i had driven past it many times and got curious about the rock. after a bit of an approach which included a lively stream crossing, i picked the most obvious line and led up a half pitch. sure enough, felt like it was going to be a 5.8 mantle with no place for pro. i just backed off the thing. i'll probably never go back and i doubt if anyone else will in my lifetime. if i should happen to move to the neighborhood, i'll know exactly where to hand-drill a bolt. if that canyon were within an hour of los angeles, it would have lines out the mouth every weekend.
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Agreed Karl. Is bolted vs trad vs FA ethics really large enough to get worried about nowadays considering the other MAJOR issues of far more pressing concerns that are out there? Regardless, the current argument really comes down to "Who was born 1st"... Really? Because they were born earlier they get to dictate how all clean rock faces located in close proximity to City Centers are climbed and are forever their domain and prerogative?
IMO many of the older climbs developed in the run it out style of the 60s-70s are simply a product of their time: Availability (or lack of) of technology (cordless rotary hammer drills), availability of bolting gear, etc.. Do you think those same routes would be developed in the style they were if cordless rotary hammer drills plus 3/8' - 1/2" bolts were readily and inexpensively available in the 60-70s? I bet the vast majority of routes would all be fairly well-bolted if the technology and economical means of access to them where in place for sport climbing in the 60-70s.
I consider myself probably on the young side of the fringe of the generation of climbers who give a sh#t about these issues. My kids don't give a sh#t about them and they all know about the ethics of climbing's history, and I know for a fact their friends won't. All they know is the gym and sport routes because once their parents got older, that's all they climb as well.
I will just come flat out and say it, I predict that ALL climbs will get retrobolted at some point with bolts. Even existing trad classics. Placing natural protection will be an option, but they will be bolted due to continual concerns about liability and access and the slow drift away from the arbitrary ethics of a time that dictated arbitrary rules.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Donini et al
--now a real comment.
I was never a 5.12 climber but was damn close to that in 1986. I decked soloing (eighty feet) and things changed when my legs started working again 10 months later. I moved away from harder to more runout climbing and more and more hard aid. I have drilled more than 4 bolts in 32 years of climbing (less than 250), but I can count on fingers and toes how many bolts I have placed with a Bosch (in rock). I have wanted to push myself and my mind control to see how far I can go. So I guess I am a 5.12 climber in a 5.9/5.10 climbers body doing 5.9X/5.10R routes then right?
jojo, my right ankle has 10 degrees of movement and my left leg looks like a shark bite. I still hike 6 miles to routes and put bolts in on stance HAND drilled. Like Donini has suggested, I seek out clean lines that require removable pro and try my best to place as few bolts as needed. I own a full rack and know how to place every piece I carry.
We have had masses of gym climbers flooding the areas for close to 20 years. No wants to get scared. They only want to climb every piece of rock they see and who cares if the idiot FA is dead, or some lost legend (grossman), or more commonly someone and FA who got old and started putting up sport routes with a Bosch. They want to climb that route NOW and string a farking slack line and show the world how cool their vimeo video is (and get redbull and citibank sponsored).
I now enjoy finding myself alone or with good company in some place you will never hear of drinking natty light maybe getting up a route or trying damn hard to. Sometimes we only bag an approach but that still gets me out. I only wish DDC would give up that damn drill........
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Greg Barnes
climber
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I will just come flat out and say it, I predict that ALL climbs will get retrobolted at some point with bolts. Even existing trad classics. More likely that ALL climbers will be banned from public land at some point.
The climbing community and our debates don't happen in a vacuum.
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jstan
climber
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there wouldn't be much climbing going on without bolting.
the case in point is williamson rock. it was climbed early by sierra club rock climbers, even before they started going out to tahquitz. williamson might have 3 or 4 long lines where you could put pitons or chocks into a crack--a very crack-poor species of granite. but when bolting came along, williamson was reborn as a climbing venue--something like 300 routes--and it quickly became the favored close-in crag for los angeles.
WILLIAMSON ROCK IS CLOSED TO CLIMBING
The US Forest Service has closed Williamson to all climbing due to a ruling by the US Fish and Wildlife Service that the area is critical habitat for the Yellow Legged Mountain Frog, an endangered species. The Friends of Williamson Rock has incorporated as a non-profit organization under IRS Code Section 501(c) to regain climbing access to Williamson. The organization needs your help. To find out more, go to our website: http://williamsonrock.org
Williamson Rock offers over 300 routes in the mountains above Los Angeles with no dirt roads to drive and minimal hiking to access. Mostly sport climbing, this area is hugely popular which means this area gets crowded on the weekends, although typically the further uphill one hikes the fewer the crowds and sense of serenity. The majority of routes are well-protected and thought-out with convenient anchors and clipping stances and are played out on steep, featured granite. Located at an elevation of 6700' the season runs from March through October depending upon weather and road conditions. No facilities exist at the crag so pack your trash out and walk away from the stream and routes to bury your waste.
There is no connection of course. That would be silly, we are all agreed.
Carry on.
Edit:
Kevin:
I think you may not be far from correct. But there is a critical element here we are ignoring. Around 1990 I went to a public meeting the Supervisor of JTNP held regarding wilderness bolting. He said something along the lines, ' Our job is to manage JTNP. We will manage the Park.'
Climbers all too often feel it is their entitlement to use public lands entirely without management by those responsible for these lands.
This attitude invites, consequences. Unnecessarily. Look at the areas to which climbers are now denied access. In these cases was not this attitude strongly evidenced?
BITD when I visited Eldorado near Boulder it struck me as a relatively small area supporting a very large number of climbers. Climbers there adopted a cooperative attitude with regards to that area and with regards to Boulder Open Space. What do you think the status of those areas would be now had climbers adopted a confrontational attitude?
It seems to be a law that humans actively bring upon themselves the things they most fear. We are doing this here.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Bolting is about the game of climbing and not the environment. The environmental impacts of climbing are mostly in the approach and descent from the climb and perhaps the camping and driving we do. Climbers are going to climb although having reasonably protected routes might draw them to certain places in larger numbers.
but let's not toss around the "environment" reason too quickly if we're not ready to stand up for minimizing erosion, making cairns to mark approach and descents to avoid many use trails, and the the other things that might actually reduce our impact on the crag ecosystem
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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http://mountainproject.com/v/die-wilden-kletterkerle/107223951
Would depend on the area but that route doesn't offend me so much. I would guess it gives beginners a place to practice their belay, lead, and rope stuff without clogging a route more experienced beginners want to do
There's a place for everybody
PEace
Karl
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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To Higgins, Kamps, Robbins, TM, Worrall, Settlemeyer, Caunt, Long, Ament, McDivett, Bachar, Smith, Bard, Clevenger, and too many more to name..I guess facts are fact and times they are a changin' and war and racism are more important then our little climbing world. But I'm going to miss those climbs you all put up. I going to miss the solitude that they grant and the way they engage my mind....There weren't many of you back then wandering around and exploring..I feel lucky to have been able to experience those things...and hope to get a few more in before the retro era begins..and although I appreciate anyone's right to climb as they see fit, Galactic Hitchhiker isn't on my list......
Syonara, Tony Lewis
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