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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 12, 2012 - 11:29am PT
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Monkey, like most snakebites he was a young male drinking with friends.
"Here, hold my beer, watch this."
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laurel arndt
Trad climber
phoenix
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Jun 12, 2012 - 02:03pm PT
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Living and climbing in the Arizona desert leaves us quite susceptible to rattlesnake encounters. I have had four very close (less than one foot away)run ins in the last 2 years while on approaches and none have warned me with their rattle.
When In spoke to a wildlfe biologists at work and shared my stories, they informed me there has been some speculation that the trait of "warning" predators off is being "breed" out of rattlesnakes. Two thoughts: One is that the rattlers we encounter in areas where we "coexist" or recreate, have become desensitized to the movement and vibrations of people and they don't see us as a food source nor do they sense us as a predator and have begun to no longer rattle as a defense mechanism.
So that takes care of the "urbanized rattlers" theory, but what about those in the more natural/back country environment? I have had had encounters in climbing areas that see only a moderate amount of climbing visitors (Cochise Stonghold, Mt Lemon and Isolation Canyon)and would have expected to see typical behavior from rattlers encountered, yet all three times no warning, I reached within 6-12 inches just in time.
Biologists I spoke with said that we are just encroaching on so much of their space (climbing ledges included)that the rattlers can sense human presence over that of a prey or predator and see us as neither and do not have the need to warn. Sad to think what humans have done to the nature of snakes, not too amazing when you look at how we impacted other predators (bears, wolves, coyotes) and their response to us.
Keep your eyes open and be wary.
PS: sound like a really bad version of a scorpion sting too
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cragonym
climber
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Jun 12, 2012 - 02:24pm PT
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Saw this bad boy just off the trail about an hour out below Chilnualna Falls above the Wawona hotel last fall in Sept 2011. We spooked it and it let out a crazy spat and hiss, NO rattle. I was second behind my buddy Keith who flew through the air like Superman.
They are definitely out there, and I too have heard this is bad year for rattle snakes in the Western Sierras and foothills.
Finger looks great...heal fast.
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little Z
Trad climber
un cafetal en Naranjo
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Jun 12, 2012 - 02:40pm PT
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Gavin, glad to hear you're recovering.
In the Neo-tropics there is a big nasty venomous snake known as the Bushmaster in English. One of its Spanish names is "Cascabel Muda" which translates as "Mute Rattlesnake". The end of a Bushmaster's tail is hard and horn-like and when they are pissed off they will rattle it against sticks and leaves. Only once have had the luck to see one here despite many hours in the field. It's pretty rare, like most top tier predators.
So, what was your experience with the antivenom like? Here in Costa Rica I was nailed by an Eyelash Viper and when I was given the serum in the hospital started breaking out in hives and had terrible dry heaves. When I got out of bed to take a piss I passed out. Getting the antivenom wasn't the "ahhh" of relief one might expect. I'd think twice about self-administering it in the field unless it was going to be a long time before reaching a hospital. The folks at the hospital where I was treated said they deal with up to 5 cases of snake bite a day. In other words, they knew what they were doing. They said my reaction was nothing serious and was pretty normal. When they set me up for the antivenom they opened needles with IV drip bags in each arm (the bite was on my shoulder). One needle for the serum, the other for the little bottle of norepinefrin on the bedside table in case of anaphylactic shock. No pre-testing for an allergy to the anti-venom.
Ditto Thirsty's query; any Docs out there? what's the recommended procedure if you get nailed and the hospital is more than 24 hours away?
JZ
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jun 12, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
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Just curious: What is the most current thinking / advice from the medical community about what to do with a bite in the back country when you might not get help for a while, meaning a day or two? Does it differ from what you should do if you think you can get out within five or six hours to a road and evacuation?
The ONLY thing that affects the outcome of a bite is getting antivenom.
There is no first aid measure that has any measurable effect, according to the current thinking. I know Dr. Sean Bush, and he is first rate in the field. I believe there are YouTube's of him talking on the subject.
All first aid measures make things worse, because they cause a delay in getting to the antivenom, the only thing that matters.
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David Nelson
climber
San Francisco
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Jun 12, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
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Have not posted for a while, feels good to be back on SuperTopo.
One ID characteristic that has not been mentioned, that is useful when trying to distinguish a gopher snake from a rattler: gopher snake scales do not have a ridge, rattler's scales have a ridge. This, combined with other aspects of the scales, make a gopher snake look relatively smooth and a rattler rather rough. This makes ID rather easy, even from a distance or at high speed. It is fun to see a snake when travelling 65 miles an hour along the backwoods highways, make a guess as to the ID of the snake, then drive back and check. I am close to 100% right based on this aspect.
One can also ID just a shed skin. The ridge in the scales are still easily visible.
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eagle
Trad climber
new paltz, ny
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Jun 12, 2012 - 08:14pm PT
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copperheads and rattlers are all over this place in the gunks...gotta watch yer feet
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jun 12, 2012 - 09:29pm PT
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"Our neighbor's dog out in JT got bit by a rattler about a month ago. They got her to the vet quickly and she's doing fine..."
We've been thinking about getting the crotalid vaccine for our pups- they are only about 22 lbs, and the male's personality is especially likely to get him in trouble. Apparently, the canine vaccine primarily minimizes the symptoms, and slows the progression- could be valuable, esp. for dogs of this size.
Anyone have experience or knowledge with this vaccine?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 12, 2012 - 09:35pm PT
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David Nelson, yous a funny guy! If ya can't ID a Gopher vs Rattler I doubt
you're gonna get down and examine the scales! HaHaHaHaHa!
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Jun 12, 2012 - 09:36pm PT
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Proud send by the LEO's/SAR Team.
Good collar!!!
No matter what the cost, seems like quite a catch.
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Swifter
Social climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Jun 13, 2012 - 05:50pm PT
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1.
Since SAR don't charge for rescues (some vics would delay calling until the event was really advanced I wonder if the AAC trailhead insurance you get with membership can be applied as a donation to SAR groups (who can always use a little more $$$.)
2. To help in identification I enclose a photo from ca 1954 when a climber accidentally stepped on a crotalid.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jun 13, 2012 - 06:41pm PT
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I've stumbled across quite a few rattlers including 2 on climbs. The only one I remember rattling was a wickedly assertive Mojave blocking a trail in Red Rocks.
With a little education, it's pretty easy to distinguish them by the shape of their head. And that's the end you have to worry about.
The only rattler found in Northern California (including Yosemite) is the Northern Pacific Rattlesnake, Crotalus Oreganus Oreganus. Found from approx San Luis Obispo county into British Columbia.
Some pretty surprising pictures of the range of patterns and colors of just this one subspecies.
http://www.californiaherps.com/snakes/pages/c.o.oreganus.html
Note the fat green one in my neck of the woods - Santa Cruz County
Tami, you're not out of the woods (so to speak)
From the Pacific slope in British Columbia, Canada, south through the United States to San Luis Obispo County and Kern County in California. This includes south-central British Columbia, Washington east of the Cascade Mountains, western Idaho from Coeur d'Alene south to near Council or Weiser, northern and western Oregon (excluding the Cascades), and California west of the Sierra Nevada. Also found on Morro Rock off the coast of San Luis Obispo County. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crotalus_oreganus
Just stay in those dank, cold, dark, wet and mysterious Coastal mountains and you're not likely to step on one.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jun 13, 2012 - 10:32pm PT
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hey there say, gav, and all...
got here late... say, glad to hear that all turned out well for you...
my mom and us once had a scary 'too close viewing' on a paved trail where the picnic benches were (and the warning sign for mountain lionss) in
a san jose park...
i am forever grateful that all was well--and i always thank god for folks being saved for such...
god bless...
werner:
thanks for sharing, also, as to the dilegence of the rescue folks...
:)
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jun 13, 2012 - 11:25pm PT
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jul 10, 2012 - 05:36pm PT
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Hey Gav, how are you doing?
Reilly June 5, 2012
"Scientific American" reports that the Southern Pacific Rattlesnake, Crotalus oreganus helleri, might be undergoing an evolutionary change in its venom possibly by inter-breeding with the Mojave, Crotalus scutulatus scutulatus. It appears also to be expanding its range at the expense of the Red, Crotalus ruber, and the Speckled, Crotalus mitchelli pyrrhus. The Southern Pacific seems to be hissing and rattling less, or biting first, as this is a strategy that will bring it afoul of fewer shovels.
The venom appears to be undergoing a transformation to something more akin to the Mojave's hemo and neurotoxic cocktail. Some think a dormant gene that controls the neurotoxic components may becoming activated in response to increased resistance by ground squirrels to the hemotoxic elements. Then there are those like Dr Sean Bush of Loma Linda University Med Ctr who think that we are just becoming more aware of the greater variability and potency of venoms than previously.
That reminds me of a New Scientist article I read several years ago:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12477
Squirrels wield a hot, secret weapon
It's Californian ground squirrel versus rattlesnake in a potentially lethal showdown. But the squirrel has a secret weapon that until now has remained invisible to the human eye.
The ground squirrel heats up its tail then waves it in the snake's face - a form of harassment that confuses the rattler, which has an infrared sensing organ for detecting small mammals.
This defensive tactic remained invisible to biologists until they looked at the animals through an infrared video camera. Now they believe that many other animals might be using infrared weaponry to ward off potential predators.
Young California ground squirrels (Spermophilus beecheyi) are easy prey for snakes, so protective adults harass the predators while puffing up their tails and wagging them.
Infrared organ
Graduate student Aaron Rundus and his supervisor Donald Owings of the University of California, Davis, wondered how this might affect the snakes' interaction with the adult squirrels. So he borrowed a $35,000 infrared camera from another scientist and spied on squirrel-snake stand-offs.
He saw the adults' tails heat up, presumably due to increased blood flow, when they were warning rattlers away - making the squirrel appear larger to the snake's infrared organ.
Confronted with a gopher snake, which has no infrared sensory organ, the squirrels wagged their tails but didn't bother to warm them up first.
Tests with robotic squirrels confirmed that a warmed squirrel tail made rattlesnakes more likely to act defensively, say Rundus and Owings.
The squirrels themselves do not see in infrared, so they cannot see another squirrel's tail heating up. But the snakes can, proving that the squirrels have evolved a specific way to deter rattlesnakes.
"It taught us to focus on the perceptual world of the animal we're studying" rather than thinking only of human perceptions, says Rundus.
Journal reference: Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (DOI: 10.1073/pnas.0702599104)
And another
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn9784
Smelly squirrels fool hungry snakes
Squirrels are the unlikely inventors of a cloaking device that lets them thwart rattlesnakes by using the snakes' own scent against them.
Female California ground squirrels (Spermophilus beecheyi) chew on skins shed by Pacific rattlesnakes (Crotalus oreganus) then lick themselves and their pups, apparently to anoint them with the odour of the enemy. But does this olfactory disguise fool the snakes?
To find out, Barbara Clucas of the University of California in Davis captured rattlesnakes and offered them filter paper scented with snake skins, squirrel fur, or both. The snakes were drawn to the squirrel-scented paper, lingering over the spot and flicking out their tongues as they do when they hunt. Papers scented by both snake and squirrel, or by snake alone, failed to interest them.
"The rattlesnakes exhibited much more foraging behaviour to the squirrel scent alone," Clucas says. This suggests that in the wild, snake-scented squirrels may evade attack because they no longer smell tasty.
Clucas reported her findings at the Animal Behavior Society meeting this week in Snowbird, Utah. Adult squirrels can survive a bite, but small pups easily succumb, so female squirrels will confront a rattlesnake that smells through the disguise.
And one more but I do not have the full article
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg16422164.900
11 December 1999 by Stephanie Pain
Magazine issue 2216. Subscribe and save
Sssss is for danger
DOWN among the walnut trees something stirs. It's the breeding season for the California ground squirrel, and the orchard is dotted with burrows. Out of a hole comes a careful nose, followed nervously by the rest of the squirrel. It's an adult, and female. With a litter of pups in the burrow, she's tense and jumpy. She stands upright, looks around—and spots the mottled coils of a rattlesnake waiting just outside the burrow. Alert now, the squirrel stretches up to her full height and waves her tail from side to side like a flag. Suddenly, she dashes towards the snake and kicks sand in its face. Heroic? Suicidal? Or is there method in her madness?
With its big fangs and powerful venom, a rattler is not something a squirrel ought to mess with. But what looks like a mad bout of snake baiting is not as crazy as it seems. ...
To continue reading this article, subscribe to receive access to all of newscientist.com, including 20 years of archive content.
NB I have also read some articles that do show squirrels are (seemly) become more immune to rattler venom. So Reilly and others (Dr Bush etc) may be correct in the assumption that nature is taking a natural course in making buzzworm venom more potent.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
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Jul 10, 2012 - 05:44pm PT
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Crotalusly challenged is a route in Owens. Totally just made sense to me now.
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Radish
Trad climber
SeKi, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2012 - 06:36pm PT
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As Firefighters we analyze accidents too just like climbing accidents. I found this and its pretty fricking gruesome! This happened in LA County to a firefighter just this last May 31st. He was clearing brush on a road in Glendora and bent over to pick up some grass with a gloved right hand when a snake struck him in the finger. It didn't let go and in the process of freaking out and trying to pull it with his other left hand he got bit in that finger! Both hands!!
http://www.wildfirelessons.net/SearchResults.aspx?q=Rattlesnake%20Bite%20LA%20COunty
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Radish
Trad climber
SeKi, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2012 - 06:49pm PT
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Thanks for fixing that Fattrad! Its one crazy story for sure. Makes me look around more!
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jul 10, 2012 - 08:51pm PT
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One Day Hero, I am surprised that the Mojave Green (black, whatever color) is not on that list, a I understand it (perhaps wrongly) its venom is one of the most deadliest (of course not like the Inland Taipan for example).
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