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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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I'll say this to the repeated comments about BD employees and how they deal with "us", the buying public.
Every single time I have had ANY issues with ANY BD product, whether prodeal, full price, warranty issue, order issues, whatever...every time they have given me absolutely stellar service...often going beyond my expectations.
Every time.
This actually happened again today on a product repair. I have a hard time seeing them as a company that hangs climbers out to dry or doesn't really try to put out good products or stand behind them. The idea they'd do that deliberately just doesn't square with my experience. At all.
I use a LOT of their gear. I hesitate to comment on the sabertooth thing...but this thread and the others like it have gotten a little too hysterical for my tastes. Yeah there may be a problem with it...but blaming some dastardly money-grubbing scheme or ethics just doesn't mesh with my experience.
my $0.02.
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Gene
climber
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peter.metcalf@bdel.com
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I wouldn't hold my breath coz.
No doubt he has read this but refuses to get drawn in.
Maybe he thinks it will just blow over.
It has been a long time since I climbed ice, but even if I wasn't soloing I figure that one could be seriously injured with a front point failure.
Not addressing this in some manner is hard to explain though.
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jfs
Trad climber
Upper Leftish
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coz, i have no interest in getting in a ridiculous contest with you. Calling me out as a BD troll is certainly your perogative. It's entertaining. But I'm not.
Cheers.
Dane brought up the issue. I think he's a pretty level headed guy and think his opinion is worth listening to. A new BD response would be interesting at this point.
But I've got no desire to join in on the hysterics.
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aforslund
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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When I asked Peter Metcalf about it in an open call during the quarterly meeting I was told "Our crampons rock". Peter Metcalf claimed publicly that he knows nothing about breakage. He then claimed that I wasn't a stockholder but in fact a competitor.
Then I was lied to by the regional rep along with the regional rep making statements that if true would have been illegal. Bill Belcourt told me that all crampons break. When I asked why BD had to add more material to the front of the crampons if they weren't breaking he didn't have an answer that made sense.
Buy a few shares.
Make a phone call.
Warren Kanders the largest shareholder in BDE is a guy that is no stranger to selling defective equipment. Look in to his businesses and how he has run them. With a little work you will see that stock holders have tried to oust him before. His track record of creating value in his holdings is spotty at best and negligent at worst.
Based on what I have heard during the quarterly calls I doubt BD will be in the hardware business in 10 years. They are going to make a push in to clothing. Everyone wants to look like a climber while few people actually climb. The profit on a pair of Yoga pants is a lot better than that of a crampon.
The fact remains. That BD is not addressing the issue in a clear, open and honest way.
Would DMM/Wild Country, Petzl, Grivel, CAMP, Mammut, etc do this?
Would these companies create a smoke screen?
Wild Country recalled the Helium carabiners when they barely hit the street.
DMM recalled the Dragons practically before anyone could put them in a crack.
Petzl recalled the Sarken, Gri-Gri, Nomic fast.
Grivel...
CAMP recalled the Photon carabiner when it was still new and they included the lockers.
Mammut...
At one point BD thought it wise to recall crampons. In 2003 there was a CPSC recall of a 150 pairs of Bionic crampons.
My guess is that BD will maintain the silence. It is cheaper to engage in great customer service than service the climbing community through honesty.
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RDB
Social climber
wa
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There are always at least two sides to every discussion. I am a climber and want to make sure myself and my friends are safe while climbing. End of story. No hidden agenda here. No BD bashing. Just asking for a answer, which should be simple, a safer product.
But it is never a simple answer when you are dealing with a corporation.
Lots of wailing and gnashing of teeth in public. But if a crampon or bike frame fails (REI's most recent delima) and someone is maimed or dies it isn't a specific employee or the current CEO who pays that bill.
If it were things would be different.
We all climb. To me climbing is all about personal responsibility. My profession is all about my willingness to accept full responsibility. I don't get to pass the buck to anyone. And I like it that way. I am human as well and I do what I am capable at any given moment and I make mistakes. I don't think keeping the issue of stainless horizontal crampons in the public eye is a mistake.
I know for a fact that the numbers of broken stainless crampons are not financially signifigant to BD or to a huge retailer like REI. If they were this problem would have been treated differently and quickly solved. There would be no public discussion.
From conversations with BD employees recently and in the past, BD "officially" doesn't think their crampons break. Hard to explain that position when I am holding a broken pair of Sabers in my hands but I understand their position. "They don't break any more than everyone else's crampons".
We might have to agree to disagree on that point however.
It is like we are from two different planets if that is the answer BD is giving.
Numbers (statistics) are easy to play with and manipulate in any direction for show and tell. Good, bad or indifferent..I don't care about your crampons generally. I care about my crampons and my partner's crampons.
BD as a corporation "seems" to only be concerned about the financial end of this equation. Fair enough, that is what corporations do. I own one and that is its ONLY goal. My perception of "seems" may be wrong. But I have nothing to base that assumption on.
We are not talking Yvon banging out pitons on a hammer forge every winter here. BD would be long dead if we were. Bob Culp said something similar a few pages back...we would all have less without BD in our community.
I believe that and think we should remember it. But they are not the golden calf either. If it looks bad..we all know, it generally is bad.
I made a public statement some time back, "don't let friends climb on stainless horizontals". And I don't. But I still use them on occasion simply to test what I have seen and heard.
I had hoped this converstaion would have been dead a year ago. But it obviously isn't when new reports of crampons breaking continue to pop up.
Lets' not kill the messengers here. (which would seem by past actions to be the prefered corporate response) No disrespect intended but how about the 500 employees simply get to work and solve the problem of catastrophic crampon failure?
I am not talking the trivial, broken connecting bar, cracked frame or bent front point like every crampon on the market has on occasion. But the real, no sh#t, catastrophic failure of stainless horizontals. The same catastrophic failure that would more than likely get you seriously fooked up on a climb.
More than a few of us (including BD employees) have picked up bodies in the mtns. I'd rather give BD the corporation a huge pile of PR sh#t than do that ever again. Fix the problem and make me believe it. (bit long in tooth now but certainly possible) And I'll be the first back strapping on a pair of Sabers full time. Hell, I'd even buy them at full retail!
Me climbing in 2nd gen Sabers a couple of weeks ago.
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aforslund
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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"Our crampons rock!"--Peter Metcalf, May 2011
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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The difference between now and 9th grade is that you could die.
-gets my vote for Snappy Comback of the Week (if knott the month).
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Well, if by schoolyard bullying you are referring to coz or me I would offer two responses. First; that we both have legitimate beefs with Metcalf, and second that we ain't having brunch with the Queen here. This is SuperTopo godammit!
Some gobies or bruises are par for the course.
Metcalf can always sign on if he has the stones of a bookseller.
(oh,.... wait,... bad example) lol
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Levy
Big Wall climber
So Cal
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In response to Anders (Mighty Hiker) retort, that BD is always good about responding to gear failures.
A few years ago I had a BD harness that broke inside the webbing that covers the leg loops where they meet the belay loop. I never saw any wear on the outside of the harness, which was about 1 year old. I was lowering off a route I had just done when there was a tearing sound & my harness waistbelt shot up around my ribs while I was hanging way off the deck. I grabbed the rope like a noob & had my partner lower me as fast as safely possible.
I wrote to BD & they never replied to me. I contacted them again & they sent me a new harness. They never had anyone contact me, they never replied. They pretty much acted like it never happened.
I've never trusted BD sewn gear since. True dat!
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Stones of a Bookseller would be a good route name
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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for the complainers out there, I suggest the following:
send your sabreteeth to BD with a note saying something like, "I don't trust this gear at all". Copy their legal counsel.
Post the letter here on the Taco (you can obscure sensitive info, of course)
or, since it's easier, continue with the circle jerk
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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maybe i just want my money back and ill buy a more reliable crampon!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Long past due.
I've been saying it for years.
Their moral compass has been skewed for at least 9 years.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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I had not paid any attention to this until today with a quick skim. This
is sad and disturbing. A quick look at RDB's pic of the broken one tells
me that is a real weak point in the design, especially if that was designed
for chrome-moly units. I might also add that if they are using chinese
stainless then they are idiots. I've a close friend whose company goes through
a few million pounds of stainless a year and he quit using chinese stainless
except in non-critical parts. If they are using domestic stainless then it
is almost certainly a design issue, not that they couldn't be getting bogus
US stainless but less likely.
Finally, those of you who are relying on a visual inspection of your crampons
would be well advised to come to your senses. What you can't see will kill you.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Bump.
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kc
Trad climber
the cats
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I don't know anything about their crampons (I use Grivels), but I had a year old harness that had an issue, and BD was very responsive and took care of me immediately. No complaints from me.
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miwuksurfer
Social climber
Mi-Wuk
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There is a BD ad on the top of the page now. Maybe that had something to do with Coz' thread disappearance...
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Why wouldn't they?
Because their corporate culture has changed?
Yvon needs to hire Guido to go deliver a beatdown.
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