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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Feb 14, 2012 - 09:20pm PT
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Seriously now, there seems to be some evidence for a theory of devolution.
Geologic evidence for times when species flourished then things got worse.
For example: What happens when a civilization gets really advanced?
The more intelligent of the species goes camping. What if they did that more and more, eventually cutting all ties to electronic technology and living totally organically in harmony with nature.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Feb 14, 2012 - 09:34pm PT
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There's no anti-evolution...
What a joke. Right up there along with, "Beliefs don't matter." Rick Santorum, anti-evolutionist, now tied for the lead in American politics, Repub party, after appeal to his "base."
Lincoln would be proud, eh?
.....
Verily, it's hard to stay plugged into American politics early 21st century with so much bs at every twist and turn. I certainly can understand those who choose to go off grid and free solo.
Certainly I know for whom the Duggar family will be voting this Nov.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 14, 2012 - 09:41pm PT
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Fruit
They can say whatever they want.
But evolution is a bonafide fact which is impossible to deny.
Why are your panties always in a twist over everything.
Do you even sleep at night .....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Feb 14, 2012 - 09:44pm PT
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No. I've got only two system states: On and Very On.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Feb 14, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
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I think that one can never get over their heads in this unless you try and overstate your case. The fundamentalist in all of us want one process or "thing" to perfectly explain everything. In this sense, some zealots have simply swapped out "God" with evolution, and the mechanics of natural selection.
I'd heed Ed's advice and just stick to what's clearly observable and quantifiable. Anyone who argues against a changing world has a lot of fancy explaining to do per the fossil record.
JL
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Feb 14, 2012 - 09:57pm PT
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Spider, evolution has no goal in mind, so de-evolution does not really mean anything. It's all just evolution. One species cannot really be said to be "better" than another. Value judgments can only be made with respect to how well the species is adapted to its environmental niche. On the other hand, environmental pressures can "speed up" evolution, as is postulated for humans during the Pleistocene, which was a time of extreme climate fluctuations.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Feb 14, 2012 - 10:05pm PT
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Yeah, I'd have to stongly disagree with that comment by Largo.
You might as well just say you can't really know anything. When you're flying at 30,000 feet in an airplane, you want to know that engineers, not philosophers designed the airplane.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Feb 14, 2012 - 10:06pm PT
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I agree with the argument that facts and faith are different....but they are very similar. The way some materialists cling to theories is very much like faith and the way some religious nuts cling to thier dogma is more like fact.
So fact and faith are close, and seem to be interchangable in some instances. What i dont like about the way science is approached, is it can fundamentally ignore anything supernatural.....which may or may not be a good thing.
I think in this specific example evolution is a best guess, but it does not conflict in any meaningful way with spirituality. The way creationists cling to thier theories is pretty much blowin smoke up everyones ass.
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GuapoVino
Trad climber
All Up In Here
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Feb 14, 2012 - 10:15pm PT
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Tell them that evolution is the change in the frequency of a particular gene within a gene pool within a population. How can you argue with that. If they are in high school they won't know what the hell you're talking about.
Tell them that they are free to believe whatever they want but they must learn the material to pass the course because there will be a test at the end.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Feb 14, 2012 - 10:19pm PT
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Donald stated, factually:
Of all the major advances in the history of science none have been more broadly controversial than Darwin's theory of the evolution of species
Well, yes Donald, but the controversy you allude to was brought on really only by one group of people, those with a fundamentalist religious mindset that would be blown to its core if its followers were to actually accept the proven science behind the study of human evolution, as opposed to god given creationism.
As far as pure science and the very factual and rigorous Scientific Method is concerned,
there is no, repeat no, "controversy".
Now Donald, which way do YOU fall in this?
Are humans evolved over a very long period of time from "lower" primates on this earth?
Or are we, in your view. created not that long ago, by the Guy in the Sky?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Feb 14, 2012 - 10:25pm PT
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Can you answer my question, Mr. Thompson?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 14, 2012 - 10:39pm PT
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I rise to Largo's defense here (not that he needs it) and say that it is very easy to get trapped in the rhetoric and miss sight of the actual thing. Evolution as a science had changed since Darwin, our set of observations are greatly enlarged, our understanding of geology has vastly changed, and we actually know what genetic material is, we can "read" genes, and we are even very close to being able to understand what we are reading.
Extending evolution to populations, and using it to understand many other things about living beings, including humans, is natural. Some of this extension is not valid, but much of it is....
when arguing the case, I try to use very careful language... which states what we understand and doesn't overstate what we know, I think that alone is a very formidable body of work which leads me to the conclusion that there is no need to invoke anything more than the physical universe to explain what this all is... but that is my conclusion.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Feb 14, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
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Human thought is not so easily explained. It takes a bit of faith to jump from biological machine of an ape, to a self aware human consciousness.
Humans are unique. Humans did "eat the apple" so to speak. It doesnt mean there isnt a natural explanation, but it does mean it is beyond our current understanding.
We are a machine, but with a bit o' magic.
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BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
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Feb 14, 2012 - 11:07pm PT
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Yeah, it IS kind of strange that in many of the oil and gas rich states we also have a lot of really forceful fundamentalist religioun.
I was at the oncologist yesterday, and out in the waiting area there were these really hard core Christian mags. So I start reading the one about how evolution is bogus. So much of it was just factually wrong. I even took it along with me through radiology and read it about three times. It was, just from an argument point of view, quite pathetic. I have been meaning to send the author a kind email pointing out the falsehoods.
I work with geoscientists who are like a slice of the general population. One of the smartest guys has his office plastered with Christian quotes and all that. My boss is an old dead head. Both are extremely smart.
This is where sedimentary geologists really see evolution on a daily basis. Fossils are almost all found in sedimentary rocks. I look at drill cuttings from a 15,000 foot well that starts in the Cretaceous and ends up in the Cambrian. Along the way there are a number of invertebrate microfossils.
It is so obvious that I don't know of a single petroleum geologist who doubts evolution. We don't find tools in Ordovician outcrops, for example. We do find them in Quaternary alluvium.
I certainly don't want to destroy anyone's religious faith, so evolution is just a very good theory that has held water for ages.
To dismiss it is just foolish. The real fossil record is not so much big vertebrates. It is in invertabrate fossils. The invertebrate record is very complete, and the fossils are found in a number of common depositional environments. Hell, I never even studied vertebrate evolution much. It was all invertebrate paleontology.
You can take a pinch of limestone, cut it into a thin section, and see it is filled with fossils.
Everything checks out. It is as good as the theory of the electron or Newton's theories of motion. Yeah, I know that Newton was a little off, but it is good enough to send people to the moon.
I just don't get it.
Oh. edit: no cancer..
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Feb 14, 2012 - 11:20pm PT
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Oh. edit: no cancer..
congrats, man.
had to be scary.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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Feb 14, 2012 - 11:22pm PT
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we are an offshoot of apes
and we don exaggerated intellect
and this hyper intelligence has
stunted our progess along the evolutionary path.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Feb 14, 2012 - 11:57pm PT
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Donald, actually I thought your post was quite good.
It would be helpful if you would show the link where you got it from.
It was pretty well worded and somewhat thoughtful, so I figured you copy and pasted it.
But whether you did or not, thanks for answering my question and have a good evening.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Feb 15, 2012 - 12:34am PT
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Science is one thing and human psychology quite another. There are many excellent suggestions on this thread, and as I read through them, I was happy to be able to tick them off one by one as things I do or say in the classroom - minus the sometimes superior and elitist attitude.
I agree with the comment above that the teaching of evolution has the potential to be one of the most life changing classes at university from the student's perspective, but only if it is presented in a non confrontational manner they can accept. The goal always, is to get them thinking for themselves, not just memorizing for grades.
To make this happen, the instructor needs humility - respect for the students where ever they are in their understanding, as each student and class will be different, and a good sense of humor.
One other thing the students are always interested in are the bios of scientists. Beginning students are more likely to consider evolution favorably if they also know something about Darwin and his life experiences which led to his conclusions.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Feb 15, 2012 - 12:40am PT
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I'm not a romantic
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