Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Jon Taylor
Trad climber
Gardnerville
|
|
|
Mar 28, 2012 - 02:07pm PT
|
Hello Sumner, thought you were dead man;
This is a pretty old discussion, we had this chat many times during writing the guide and how and under what circumstances a bolt is appropriate. At the time we were cleaning up routes and doing them a la Chouinard Catalog style (clean, free and cleaned up). However, this ethic may have been partly subject to the gear of the day (nuts and stoppers basically, with the occasionally worthless tube chock), and its' intrinsic limitations. This seemed to go along with the esthetic of the day, which was for the sheer adventure and fun of it. Although after looking back on some these routes I feel fortunate to still be able to have children...
I personally advocated for the placement of a bolt (or fixed pin) in a place that would reduce the impact to the rock, as pro at the same place may be to say the least sketchy in order to maintain the quality of the route, although this too is a bit subjective. Far be it for me to tell people how to climb.
That being said, I do think the bolting has drifted a bit as i found some 5 or 6 bolts at the top of Ballbuster where we used to just sling things (Trippy Rock, 90 ft wall as well as others). As this proliferates it merely becomes accepted. -- see below for the point finer put...
Anybody seen Dexter lately?
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
|
|
Mar 28, 2012 - 02:17pm PT
|
As this proliferates it merely becomes accepted
With all due respect, Fućk That!!
|
|
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Mar 28, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
|
my opinion which is like a flea-sneeze in the universe,
is that belittling other peoples work / efforts by adding bolts is wrong.
aiden is a super bold, hard-working and very tallented climber.
he could do these routes in their original condition. i don't understand.
the grey areas abound in each party's interpretation of what ground is already climbed and what ground is virgin. and internet discussions regarding these gray areas are sure to be frought with mis-communications.
basically aiden is a friend and a kick asse climber that i respect,
though i do not understand nor condone his actions if indeed the accusations made here
are true.
i uphold my own ethics and standards,
i cannot force others to.
+99999999999999
I dunno Aiden, but based on what I heard of him sounds like he is a better climber than I will ever dream to be, and a good person.
But can anyone answer, DID SOMEONE ADD BOLTS TO 1ST PITCH OF BOLEE GOLD WITHOUT THE CONSENT OF FA PARTY? That would be not cool.
When I went to Sugerloaf for the first time, I was aghast to see a "convenience" rap station replete with chain approx. 25 feet off the ground (no route apparent under it).
WTF is up with that, and who dunnit?
You are talking about the lone anchor on the west face right? Right of Pony Express, right? I always looked at it without clear understanding what it is...
Did you ever chop the intermediate Self Abuse anchors, Weedge? Last time I went up they were still there.
There are a couple of salamanders in that crack lol
|
|
kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
|
|
|
Mar 28, 2012 - 06:57pm PT
|
Ultraclassic: Who gives a rats how it went up. Would the climb be any different had the bolts been placed on lead?
Um hell yeah it would be different - there would be fewer of them!
|
|
rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
|
|
|
Mar 28, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
|
It depends on when you were their Mr. Andersen. If it was March 1977 you saw me doing the 2nd ascent which was not anywhere near the achievement of Mr. Todd launching into the unknown, totally spontaneously, without pre-inspection, and without the knowledge it would go as he did in feb. 1977.This was Bill's last testament as he left Tahoe forever soon after and descended into mental illness from which, as far as i know, he never recovered.Climbing had been his whole life prior to this, so you can see why it upsets me that his creation,his heart and sole, his very life can be callously mutilated then eliminated from the record.On another note- Taylor you old Maroon lets get together and do a climb or two for old times sake.I spied a 3 or 4 pitch granite slab out in the big void (the great basin) about an hour and a half from my place outside Reno which is totally untouched and has several classic lines with our names written all over it, 5.3d at least. We will never have to worry about erasure since we'll never make any reports of its existence and nobody will ever find or even have the inclination to find it. ricksumner@ymail.com
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
|
|
Mar 28, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
|
The crickets continue to chirp as we await Aidan's response after being called out by one of the FA-ists of Tapestry, who is basically calling BS on the idea of Crushed Velvet being "an independent line".
Aidan's silence is deafening!
What bugs me most is that Sugarloaf, Lover's Leap, Phantom Spires, etc have been (and still are, for the most part) some of the last bastions of ground-up ascents. Aidan seems knott to care in the least about local ethics or history, knott to mention going so far as essentially erasing existing routes in his apparent quest to rap-bolt everything in sight (and subsequently spaying about it online). Boo!
Ego and hubris run amok?
|
|
Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
|
|
|
Mar 29, 2012 - 01:00am PT
|
Ya know, the only reason there are retrobolted routes, bolted cracks and squeeze jobs abounding is because those of you who have such strong opinions, don't have the balls to back up your own convictions with action!
That being said, there is alot of misinformation floating around on this thread. Aidan seems to be getting the brunt of it, but I tell you, he is hardly the problem.
Seems like alot of blame is being placed on him for retrobolting routes that he didn't even do, and the ones he did would only qualify as a bit of a squeeze job at most.
Paul Crawford is a very traditionally minded climber. He maintains strong traditional values along with a sensible understanding of more modern sport climbing ideals. If Aidan was committing horrendous atrocities by mindlessly retrobolting and pissing all over established routes, there is no way they would be able to maintain the good friendship that they have. On that same note, I would surely have made enemies with (my friend) Aidan by now from the chopping of his offending bolts, as I am one of the very very few who are willing to back up their convictions with action.
Like I say, he's hardly the problem.
On a side note;
Rick Sumner, hell yeah! So glad you could join us. I have a particularly strong amount of respect for your routes. Your green Tahoe guide has been the bible for my dreams for many years. I have spent countless days training my mind, gritting my teeth and sucking it up trying to prepare for the routes of the big three. Smith, Crawford and Sumner. I have made a point to try and repeat all of their/your routes in the Tahoe area. I've whittled it down to a speratic few scattered here and there. Pigs on the Wing was a particular milestone for me and the Hourglass is still one of my favorites.
I was trying to find your contact info several years ago to ask you some questions about some routes. It's been so long I forgot what I was wanting to ask. Someone told me you stopped climbing, moved to Alaska and became a hermit...HA!
|
|
rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
|
|
|
Mar 29, 2012 - 03:20am PT
|
Please dont include me in the list with likes of Crawford and Smith. Those guys were/are way above my caliber. My best days were '73 to '76 when i climbed 200 to 300 days a year. I suppose then i could match ability with most climbers around and on a rare day climb as well as anyone out their. But a near fatal fall where i broke half the bones in my body (requiring 8 hours of surgery), a relationship with the wrong women, and a general desire to have a more traditional life put an effective end to my climbing career although i didnt realize it for several more years as i continued to thrash around on the rock with the days of climbing brilliance becoming fewer and farther between.. I moved to Alaska seeking my fortune and a wife. I found both, have been married 30 years, have 3 kids all college graduates of which 2 are now general contractors taking over the family business and the youngest , my daughter well on her way as a research scientist.Now in my second childhood, after parental responsibility,i have a bucket list of climbs that were to easy to consider in my youth.
|
|
Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
|
|
|
Mar 29, 2012 - 10:07am PT
|
mr sumner if you are ever
cragging down in the tahoe
confines i'd be honored to
hold your rope.
|
|
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:07am PT
|
Now in my second childhood, after parental responsibility,i have a bucket list of climbs that were to easy to consider in my youth.
One of the reasons I like climbing is because you can totally suck (like me), but have TONS of fun.
|
|
Jon Taylor
Trad climber
Gardnerville
|
|
|
Mar 29, 2012 - 11:53am PT
|
Well the comments sure got warm and fuzzy. Rick I will give you a call, summer is coming and rock calls...
The bolting conversation will go on and on I am sure, it would be nice if it evolved into something other than f*#k this or f*#k that, obviously they have their uses (Crest Jewel comes to mind, a rather esthetic line well bolted).
I would have to agree on the Crushed Velvet thing it pales in comparison to Tapestry.
We did get to this issue a bit in the red book in the Eagle Creek section "...contrived variations of beautiful free climbs..." This primarily speaks to Eagle Lake Buttress as there are a number of nice climbs with good lines and forcing lines does seem to detract from the quality of the experience a bit.
Little bit of trivia, in the Red Book you will see E. Bart climbing around Tahoe, there was no such person it was one of us, we just did'nt want to turn the guide into an ego show.
|
|
rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
|
|
|
Mar 30, 2012 - 01:03am PT
|
John, Ron, Ladies and gentlemen, I must admit, i personally don't give a rats rear end about the "ethical" debate raging over bolting sport routes and retro-bolting previously established routes, then erasing them.My concern was for my long lost friend Bill and the significance of his achievement on Tapestry. I haven't been a real climber in over 3 decades, having long ago realized the the essential insignificance of the activity i walked away and now value anonymity much more than first ascent credit. So being, i welcome one and all to go ahead and retro-bolt then erase any route credited to me, but in so doing one must realize that in taking upon oneself the liberty to erase any previous route and then replace it with what one considers better and safer they have opened a moral floodgate and should expect no better treatment for themselves. That being said, i now turn to my ulterior motive in joining this thread. As i mentioned in earlier posts i have a bucket list of climbs to do including the 5.3d slab pictured below. I'm looking for partners with the particular skill set, mental and physical makeup,and attitude to take on the daunting slab. 1) must be a minimum of fifty years old with their best days at least two decades in the past. 2) must be capable of and willing to climb 5.3d even without protection and must be capable of and willing to reduce the climb, by any means necessary including but not limited to; use of pitons, liberal spraying of bolts, chiseling holds, gluing on artificial holds, lassoing, use of ladders, and any other method needed to bring the climb down to our level if so needed. 3) must be so addled of mind from past or current drug or alcohol use, or present a degree of dementia so acute, that memory of the events to unfold will be an impossibility and therefore any report of our activities and the resulting clamoring hordes hell bent on route erasure will not occur. 4) above all else one must maintain a sense of humor even if retreating from danger in a dastardly fashion. Seriously folks, i am returning to Alaska in May and even if i wasn't it would be to hot after that to climb their. I left my e-mail address on a previous post, feel free to contact me. Regards, Rick Sumner.
|
|
Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?
Trad climber
Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2012 - 08:22pm PT
|
Man, do I feel special…………but hardly deserving of all the commotion.
I really don’t like repeating myself over and over, which seems to happen on this site (that I try to avoid) but I feel the need since I’m often called out as the bolting Darth Vader of Hwy 50 climbing by my “friends” at ST. Luckily I enjoy a good piss-take so have at it
1) I am happy to meet, talk, email anyone about any of my routes to explain why they exist and even discuss taking them down (they are not all masterpieces :) if I was convinced the rational is sound However, the cyber bitch slapping is for PUSSIES. This means many of YOU WANKERS who just want to be seen on a chat page acting the hard man.
2) I actually have a good deal of respect for the tradition of climbing and its forefathers, but that doesn’t mean that everything they did was right.
3) Tapestry: The story as best I understand it. Joel Moore (an old partner) watched the first ascent. When I discussed my proposed route he said that “that is not Tapestry and should be given its own name”. Fair enough.
|
|
Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?
Trad climber
Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2012 - 08:24pm PT
|
Rick Sumner: Tapestry cont'd
You have probably not seen Crushed Velvet in person but here’s what I see: Tapestry starts up and veers slightly left and then hits knobs and trends back right to its 1st bolt. This 1st bolt of Tapestry is now (I think) the 4th bolt of Blue Velvet. Blue Velvet is the retro bolted bottom third of Tapestry. Tapestry then Trends right to its second bolt. This bolt is now a shared bolt of Crushed Velvet which comes up from below it and intersects it at that point. Tapestry then trends back left and to the top. Crushed Velvet continues straight up. As best as I know from the position of the Tapestry bolts (which are a different brand and easy to see) and Joel Moore’s observation of the routes FA, Crushed Velvet touches Tapestry at one bolt and the remainder is independent. If enough people who actually have been up and understand where both route go want it dismantled I would chop the upper half. I feel very certain that the lower 70+ feet had never been led and is excellent and tricky 10c/d climbing up sequencey knobs. I would also say that the same argument applies even more to Blue Velvet and so if you want to restore Tapestry the lower half of that route needs chopping also.
|
|
Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?
Trad climber
Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2012 - 08:25pm PT
|
4) The other controversial route I put up Is Lesbian Love. This really does qualify for adding bolts (my only time) to another person’s route, but………………Here is the rational.
The Price/Smith Route (I have much respect for a lot of Smith’s routes which are usually good lines and not as insane as they might at first seem): The PS started up one of the most beautiful and striking features on one of the most beautiful and striking pieces of rock around. The Upper Spire. The dike shoot up straight as an arrow on perfect rock just asking for a route. They started up in fine and daring style. They got to the hard thin climbing and could not bolt it on lead. The route then is shown to turn left 90 degrees, traverse 25 feet and join Robert’s Crack. Lame (sorry Mr. Smith. They can’t all be masterpieces), and most definitely not a classic. This left the dike unclimbed as a whole. A terrible waste for such a brilliant feature. I came along and bolted up the whole beautiful dike (hence Lesbian Love) as a route. Tradition would dictate that I should have left the first 40 feet as was and continued it up. I just could not get my head around what would have seemed like the ruination of a great route by having the first 40 feet X rated. It is certainly not a simple sport climb, but a really good and pretty hard, testy climb envisioned by Smith/Price and completed by me. Change the name, change the FA credit, but to chop it would piss a lot of people off who really like it (beside Lesbian Love is a way better name then Price/Smith:)
As for the rest of my routes. Lots of really nice, aesthetic climbs if you take the time to get on them. No bolted cracks. No death defying run outs put in on TR, but not many that would qualify as sport climbs either. I can honsestly say I think a great deal about where I place a bolt. As for the retro bolted Bollee Gold (1st), Telesis, Opus 7, Ghost in the Machine (1st). Not me. I would have liked Telesis left in original form myself. Opus 7. Paul Crawford doesn’t care less. Bollee: probably too much of a classic to take down now.
Happy Friday. Let the drinking and slagging off begin!
Aidanq9@gmail.com
|
|
Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
|
|
|
Mar 30, 2012 - 09:58pm PT
|
self abuse intermediate
anchor is gone.
|
|
Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
|
|
|
Mar 30, 2012 - 10:28pm PT
|
ah ron, i'll take the pint,
but though i mounted the bun, er, midway rock
armed with a cheater bar,
half my tool chest in sockets / wrenches
(i wasn't sure what size bolts i'd encounter)
epoxy,
gravel in my pockets
a sixer of greenies
and three hours before i had
to pick up my children
i found the bolts to be already gone.
someone beat me to them,
thanks to whomever you are
for cleaning that up.
i couldn't even find where the studs
once were.
cheers to restoration efforts.
|
|
Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?
Trad climber
Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2012 - 10:35pm PT
|
I pulled em chuck. No need for them any more.
You should find better ways to spend your day off.
BTW I have some bolts I want chopping. Seriously, I don't have the time. I'll give you the details and you can have at it.
By the way will "you hold my rope" too?
history book rewriting for fun and profit? Now there's an idea.
Does it pay well?
|
|
Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
|
|
|
Mar 30, 2012 - 11:12pm PT
|
Ron, I really like your perspectives.
I agree with your opinions, your ideals, your standards etc... 99.99% of the time.
However in this case, you're a bit off base. Aidan is way more sensible and respectful of history than you've been lead to believe.
Others around the area... Not so much.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!