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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Survival-
There wouldn't have been a single wolf killed in the mountain states in the past 60 years, if they hadn't been reintroduced. That's my point.
Let them run free in the Canadian arctic where they don't clash with people. I'm not anti wolf I just think they are inappropriate in the mountain states, especially a non native species.
And Thanks Hawkeye-
For pointing out the amazing hypocrisy of people advocating ruining other people's livelihoods from the safety of their own urbanized environments. If they love wolves so much, then why don't they leave where they live and move to Idaho where they can see them up close?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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dont get me wrong....i have heard wolves in northern WA, BC and MT howling and i thought it was really cool, a highlight of time in the mountains.
on the other hand, i am not trying to eke out a living raising beef/goats/sheep with an additional predator around so i tend to respect the ranchers and impacted people's opinion more than say someone from downtown LA or SF....
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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I heard this wolf howling in the desert in Nevada and called him in by howling back to him. What a beautiful wild animal in our dying world. I showed the photos to a Yellowstone biologist and he said that it was a Mexican Gray. All nature is about balance, and it's when it goes out of balance that the problems set in.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Only a few years ago, the selfsame environmentalist "do-gooders" wanted to re-introduce the wolves and grizzly bears into Rocky Mountain National Park, but the public outcry was so great from people living in Estes Park, Lyons, and all the other small communities along the Peak-to-Peak highway the plan was quietly "shelved." Ditto the communities of Granby and Grand Lake. These communities were too damned "close to the action," so to speak.
To quote Professor Revilo Oliver, University of Illinois: "The real problem with do-gooders, is against whom they will do-good next."
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jennie, the charts you posted about 20 back: How big (or small) is "Lolo Zone"? They indicate, at least for that area, that elk populations have been steadily declining since the mid-1980s, which I believe is well before wolves were reintroduced, certainly in any significant number. What is the cause? Habitat destruction? Over-hunting? Poaching? Encroachment by domestic wildlife? Perhaps the wolves have added to whatever pressure there was, but assuming elk numbers have declined, it doesn't seem a simple equation. Are there any reliable state-wide charts for Idaho or Montana, showing changes in all prey populations over the last few decades?
Speaking of equations, RJ and a few others like to rabidly foam about wolves supposedly attacking and killing humans. Fairy tale fantasies, but there you go. The surprising thing being that one or two humans are killed each year in the US west by cougars, and a similar number by bears. They're also apex predators - why no big fuss?
Some of the issues mentioned seem likely to work themselves out over time. For example, the reintroduced wolves will come into equilibrium with prey species, and other predators such as cougars, coyotes, and bears. Litter sizes will decrease, and average wolf size likewise. Fairly typical ecological succession.
To add something to the discussion, wolves may have already been starting to move across the border with B.C., into the north Cascades, northern Idaho and northwestern Montana. We had some leftin those areas, and once we stopped all the barbaric ways of murdering them that had been used, their populations started to rebound. (As the wolves were neighbours all along, they were most likely exactly the same species, in a similar environment, to those that historically inhabitated the intermontane US. Not that those that were reintroduced were necessarily any different.) So let's say that the wolves were colonizing, expanding to refill the ecological niche they'd always been in. Would they not in time have done what the US government has simply tried to speed up? In other words, the wolves are here to stay, under the EPA they can't be extirpated or exterminated, and so perhaps a bit of longer-range thinking is needed, instead of knee-jerk reactions.
Several have identified an important issue, which is whether it made sense to (supposedly) turn back the clock, and reintroduce wolves. Humans have had major impacts on the environment in these places. But, like it or not, the reintroduction does seem well-supported by the science and law, and so perhaps it would be better to accept the inevitable. It's a fait accompli.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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There are really two separate issues here, even two kinds of predators one could say - the wolves and those who imposed the wolves but don't have to live with them.
People who are native to the mountain states are plain spoken and they detest hypocrisy, so a large part of the emotion here involves the lies, the manipulations, and the ongoing hypocrisy of the outsiders who imposed wolves and will never have to suffer the consequences but are blithe about others having to deal with them.
The native born ranchers have ancestors who were encouraged by the federal government to settle those lands because it was seen in the national interest. Many received free land in return for military service. All the early settlers suffered and sacrificed to make a living and how hard this was to do is shown by the differential in population between the coasts and the mountain states.
When people from cities disparage the descendants of the early pioneers, they aren't just insulting us, but the whole tradition of western independence and self reliance and sacrifice. More personally they're insulting our hard working, long suffering ancestors and families too. Anywhere in the world I've been, that tends to make people testy.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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That lack of respect blade cuts both ways.
Dingus is right on this one. And not just regarding respect, but also regarding knowledge. How often do we hear from the rural crowd that city folk don't respect them, or don't understand anything outside their city limits?
But those same rural folk often say things like "I've been in Los Angeles a couple of times, and boy oh boy does it suck there." Right. Deep knowledge.
Case in point: about fifteen years ago I moved from Vancouver BC to the small Rocky Mountain town of Golden. (The one in BC, not the one in Colorado). Got to know a few people, and before long was invited to a party with a bunch of the locals. Many of whom wanted to know why we (the big city people) wanted to take their guns away. They mostly wouldn't believe me when I told them that no one in Vancouver gave a rat's ass how many guns people in Golden had, but were concerned about their own safety in the city.
No, it had to be just one more conspiracy by the big city liberals to screw the hard-working country folk.
Lots of ignorance on both sides. Of that debate and this present one.
Lots of historical ignorance on display in this one, too.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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the wolves and those who imposed the wolves but don't have to live with them.
The word "imposed" seems a bit strong - the wolves were apparently always there, at least according to a few posters. If they were extirpated, it wasn't for more than a few decades, and they were on the way back in any case.
This does play into the us v them fable that has been so ably exploited by right-wing US politicians for the last 150 years. The nativist story being that rural "heartland" folks are the only authentic, genuine, real Americans, and that others somehow are second-class citizens. There may be some truth to the story of small, impoverished states being pushed around by urban states with larger populations and economies, and of course the heartless federal government, but at the same time they often roll over and allow it to happen. The "red" states have a long history of selling themselves to outside agricultural, mining and other interests, even allowing for their being subsidized by others.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Guys!
Get real here! The land may have been "free" in only one respect, but it didn't come without cost. The cost was scratching a living from the land while at the same time trying to build a life and future for their descendants. The cold winters and scarce food were only part of the cost as well. It's one thing for say...a tailor, barber, shoemaker, or grocer, etc. to move into a ready-made town and do well. Imagine: starting with NOTHING, not even a roof over one's head; trying to build a home while scratching out an existence from a less-than-friendly land, and then tell me that it was "free."
I have infinite respect for our pioneering forebears, since it was they who really made this country great.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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the federal "dole" that places like MT, ID and WY get are nothing compared to say Defense related doles given to places like california. not the same political clout. and while i know there are charts out there showing a higher degree of dole per capita to say MT, it is nothing compared to the federal $ spent in highly populated states on great things like new warships/planes, etc. etc. tis the american way.
i do find it funny how this devolved into a discussion of city slickers versus ruralites.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Because of this, calling predators in with the sounds of dying prey animals is extremely effective.
is there a dying tree-hugger call out there?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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It's also a function of the over-representation of less-populated areas (states, provinces) in national legislatures. The best example being that every US state has two senators, leading to significant over-representation of small/rural/less-populated states in comparison to population. A compromise that was reached early on, part of the checks and balances.
As for RJ's argument, well, we have wolves not far from Vancouver, certainly in the sorts of places that mountaineers go.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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That is about as vicious as it gets on this continent.
With the exception of humans of course.
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dreamy
Trad climber
Brit/Argie
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At the beginning of the discussion Gibson stated that "During the Middle Ages, the Roman Catholic Church ruled that wolves belonged to the devil". That's not true. The "Malleus Maleficarum" of 1487 (condemned by the University of Cologne for unethical legal practices and contradicting Catholic teaching on demons and even by the Inquisition)looks to be the origin and is the main reference to wolves/demons, and states that they were either agents of God sent to punish sinners, or agents of the Devil sent with God's blessing to harass true believers to test their faith.
The Church´s main line of though was reflected in the story about the Wolf of Gubbio and Francis of Assisi (1182-1226) in the Fioretti di San Francesco (1390):near the city of Gubbio there was a wolf which devoured both livestock and men. Francis went into the hills and commanded the wolf to come to him and hurt no one. “Brother Wolf, you do much harm in these parts and you have done great evil…” said Francis. “All these people accuse you and curse you… But brother wolf, I would like to make peace between you and the people.” Then Francis led the wolf into the town
and made a pact between the citizens and the wolf. Because the wolf had “done evil out of hunger” the townsfolk were to feed the wolf regularly, and in return, the wolf would no longer prey upon them or their flocks.
Does anyone have something to learn?.
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TYeary
Social climber
State of decay
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We humans need to be culled from the planet. We are a despicable species.
We just don't do a good enough job on our own, but the earth will conspire with our own hubris and get the job done eventually. In the mean time we endure this kind of insanity.
TY
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Tony said: "We humans need to be culled from the planet. We are a despicable species. We just don't do a good enough job on our own, but the earth will conspire with our own hubris and get the job done eventually. In the mean time we endure this kind of insanity.
TY "
Wow! Thats' real real rough dude. I guess you must see us all as non-productive parasites. I don't see it that way myself, nor do most of us: but fortunately, we all have free will, and if you truly feel that way, you can choose to off yourself. Culling yourself means that there will be more resources left for the rest of us. I support that's a good thing. Hate to see ya go and I've always enjoyed your posts, but if you have the courage of your convictions, I'm sure that you don't see any other way. Will you be selling your cams, gear and all the stuff you suck up on the planet off beforehand?
On the bright side for you, maybe the upcoming war with Iran or the next India-Pakistan conflict will help get the population down.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Lets get real here. The only practical place to raise cattle is on a feedlot. We have all these millionaire ranchers who can't be bothered to watch their livestock, so they demand the Feds kill all predatory wild animals.
That's not natural, is it? But hey, when you're a welfare rancher, it's all about you. Screw the environment, and the environmentalists when you're at it. Give em a good scare with your firearms when you catch any of out in the woods,eeeerrrr leased land (owned by the public, but essentially private property once leased).
The only good big ranch owner in the West is Ted Turner, who has publicly acknowleged that it is economically impractical to raise cattle in the old West style. He is raising buffalo and reintroducing wolves on his land.
Strange huh? A millionaire rancher who actually gives a shoot about the environment and the other occupants of his state.
The rest of you freeloading psuedo-ranchers could learn a lot from him.
edit: TYeary has a more realistic view than most here. All you climate change deniers should listen up. My state is 7 years into a very severe drought, and still we have clowns playing at raising cattle in our mountain watersheds. They aren't holding up very well, you won't either when the whole Western US looks like the Sahara.
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