Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2011 - 12:20pm PT
|
Often, I'll offer a fireman's belay, too.
|
|
snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2011 - 12:30pm PT
|
I watched a party rap off south crack in TM and my friend and I got excited to go claim their booty. When we asked them what happened they said they just didn't want to do the rest of the climb (it was noon on a perfect day). We asked what they rapped off of... the old piton and nothing else. Really?!
-An extra biner for friction on a hanging single line rap can be nice. Or the grooved side of the guide atc.
|
|
Archie Richardson
Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2011 - 12:40pm PT
|
It is often best to pull the thinner rope (tag line). This may be more strenuous but the thicker rope is less likely to get hung up.
Agreed - the key word here is often. If the thin rope is a static rope it may better to pull the thicker rope.
I learned this firsthand at Red Rocks when rappeling with a lead rope and an 8mm static line. When the lead rope got stuck out of reach on a chickenhead, I was left with a skinny static line in my hands to lead back up with. Not good.
Great thread to remind us of our own dangerous mistakes.
|
|
nopantsben
climber
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2011 - 01:01pm PT
|
uh, Jim, I remember some rap anchors I would not call "bomber" on the Evolution Traverse! ;) Haha - still we were very vigilant.
Those were good times. Great thread!
Cheers
Ben Lepesant
|
|
nick d
Trad climber
nm
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2011 - 02:28pm PT
|
War, the middle of my rope was not abraded. When I said I located the "rough" midpoint of the rope I meant approximate, not the exact middle. Sorry for the confusion.
|
|
hooblie
climber
from where the anecdotes roam
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2011 - 05:12pm PT
|
maybe no one rappels with a simple munter hitch on a big locking biner these days, but i can report that the rope moving through the knot is capable of untwisting the locking sleeve and flipping open the gate, completely disengaging. what resulted might be called "condition batman"
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2011 - 05:24pm PT
|
Someone upthread mentioned rappelling with a static line. Do climbers other than wall climbers often have a static rope as their second one? Wouldn't it create problems with differential stretch between the two ropes, which might saw any sling they're through? Also, given skinny 'lead' ropes these days, a 7 mm static second line isn't much lighter than say an 8.2 or 8.5 (second) lead rope, and the latter has the advantage that it can be used for climbing, if needed.
|
|
mctwisted
Social climber
slacker city
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2011 - 05:52pm PT
|
mighty hiker
this has been a serious problem with unequal sized ropes "walking" and causing serious consequences, the knot can accidently travel through rap rings so that you end up on the 7 mm with the main rope as the secondary, then it wants to travel faster through the rap devise (and with no rings would saw through slings very quickly. we lost a fairly experianced climber this way while he was taking pics of his friends over in the serenity area not so long ago, very tragic (i think the knot went through the rap rings and then the smaller rope traveled through at the rappel devise)
if you take a piece of 1" tubular or supertape sling material (as a test) and then put a piece of rope through it and start sawing it back and forth, it is quite alarming how quickly it will melt through, ive done this a few times for my young climber buddies and they are always very wide eyed when they see it
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2011 - 06:31pm PT
|
I got one of these Trangos as a gift only 19 grams:
When clipped into a biner it can't open. I have a rescue/first aid kit: biner, 4 prusik slings, small role of tape, and the knife. I can ascend a rope or rescue a partner, sling a tree, tape up a cut or edge, etc.
|
|
murcy
Gym climber
sanfrancisco
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2011 - 08:49pm PT
|
Folding sewing scissors are fine if you're not field-dressing a moose but only cutting some nylon:
They're teensie.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2011 - 08:53pm PT
|
Something that is also suitable for minor first aid makes sense.
|
|
Swami Jr.
Trad climber
Bath, NY
|
|
|
Nov 11, 2011 - 08:55pm PT
|
thanks Doniniasaurus. I'll always listen to ya.
|
|
nick d
Trad climber
nm
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2011 - 01:01am PT
|
I used a big sharp machine!
Hey, we're a matching pair! We must be related, in some strange way.
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2011 - 10:14am PT
|
Thanks for the reminder, Jim.
Rappelling scares me every time I do it. It is sobering to think how many seasoned (i.e. old) climbers have met their end in rappelling accidents.
Rick
|
|
Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2011 - 11:39am PT
|
i don't care what the consigliero says. if you slip that prussik on as a habit EVERY time you rappel, you won't have to be half as vigilant.
|
|
cmclean
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2011 - 01:01pm PT
|
Great thread. One idea I find important is to check my rappel setup in the exact same way every time. Having a repeatable checklist has been shown to reduce accidents (Atul Gawande's "The Checklist Manifesto" is a good book about the subject).
I also use a klemheist backup below my device on every rappel. On raps where I am the second to go, I attach the klemheist before or while the first person is rapping. Not only does that make the additional time required to use the backup negligible, but it also provides a potential safety mechanism against catastrophe if the first person raps off one end of the rope.
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2011 - 01:36pm PT
|
Tony, I don't want to start one of those endless arguments about prussik backups, but
1. A prussik backup won't save you if the anchors or slings are bad.
2. A prussik backup won't keep you from going off the end of the rope.
3. A prussik backup won't stop you in general unless you release it, which in practical terms means you have to be at least momentarily unconscious. Getting jolted by lightning or hit by falling objects would be good examples.
4. In below-the-device setups, the distance from the knot to the rap device is critical. When this distance isn't big enough, a high step can unexpectedly release a prussik backup.
My point in terms of this discussion is that a number of the vigilances Jim and others address have to do with things the prussik doesn't protect against. So slapping on a prussik and halving your vigilance level might be a prescription for just the kinds of things the thread warns about. So by all means use a backup if you wish, but don't let it make you any more complacent then you would have been without it.
By the way, I always wonder what the party is going to do with an unconscious rappeller hanging half-way down the rap lines held by that backup. This potential means, at least to me, that for everyone but the first person down, a "fireman's belay" from below is a much more sensible way to back up the rappel.
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2011 - 01:56pm PT
|
Donini! Thanks for sharing your wisdom, and thanks to all for posting thoughts that I agree with, or find interesting.
My thoughts on 41 years of rappels.
I hardly ever "enjoy" a rappel and see them as a “necessary evil.”
The concept of Simul-raps, especially on a dubious anchor, nearly makes me ill with fear. I finally was witness to a “simul-rap” off Morning Glory Spire (aka The Incisor) at City Of Rocks this summer.
I can’t imagine wanting to do that to an anchor.
Please understand: I never really trust rappel anchors.
OK! Two helpful comments.
1. When rapping off rock horns in wet conditions ---sling, or rope “creep” can result in --disaster!
I vaguely remember an article in the defunct climbing mag. “OFF BELAY” about accidents from wet rappel slings “creeping” off wet rock horns, when weighted. The rain acted as a lubricant, with disastrous results.
A friend had a rappel anchor fail due to “sling creep” on a horn during a thunderstorm retreat. He fell 20 or so feet, until (luckily) the rappel rope jammed in a flake. He hit the next ledge down just hard enough to severely sprain an ankle. Then, the party had to re-unite and extract the jammed rope while the storm raged. Since they only had the one rope, the save was with belts, shoelaces, and a few spare slings. After extracting the jammed rope, he got to finish the retreat, in the storm, with the severely sprained ankle.
2. The other item of interest is: even on a double bolt chain rappel, a rope can still “hang” from sometimes bizarre circumstances.
In 2010 Donini, Crazy Tom & I hung a rappel rope up at the double chain anchor for Scream Cheese at City of Rocks. Three of us could not pull it free.
After Tom led Swiss Cheese to free it, he took this photo of the jammed Bluewater rope.
|
|
rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
|
|
|
Nov 12, 2011 - 02:18pm PT
|
Fritz, it looks to me as if that rope was threaded incorrectly to begin with, in which case the tape would just have been the final straw.
In extreme circumstances when the rope gets stuck and can't be pulled, there is a temptation to prussik on it. This pictures provides memorable evidence for just how bad an idea that can be.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!