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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Nov 11, 2011 - 04:26pm PT
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The question of whether or not Paterno and the coach broke the law is a red herring.
The question is "What would you do if you had very good reason to believe a boy had been molested by a man known to you?"
Sandusky is a man of national fame and significant adoration by The Fans. The Penn State chain of command tried to hide it. Plain and simple. The grad assistant who saw it is the least culpable because he was at the bottom of the chain and immediately passed it up to his superior. Also he owed his job to Paterno. When nothing happened to Sandusky he could/should have gone to the police. At risk to his job and professional reputation if PennState.
graduate assistant Mike McQueary implicated Penn State itself when testifying before a Grand Jury looking into the Victim 1 case said that he had March 1, 2002, at 9:30 p.m. walked in on a boy thought to be 10 years old (described in court papers as "Victim 2") "being subjected to ............. by a naked Sandusky"[15] in the Lasch Football Building on the Penn State campus. ...................[14] The next day, he reported the incident to Paterno, who informed Curley. Ultimately, the only action Curley and Schultz took was to order Sandusky not to bring any children from Second Mile to the football building — an action that was approved by school president Graham Spanier. I've deleted some graphic stuff.
Although Penn State prohibited Sandusky from bringing boys onto the main campus in 2002, Sandusky was allowed to operate a summer camp under his name from 2002 to 2008 at a satellite campus near Erie where he had daily contact with boys from fourth grade to high school. Remind you of the Catholic Church moving pedophile priests and Bishops out of the public view?
The timeline according to ESPN
http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7212054/key-dates-penn-state-sex-abuse-case
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monolith
climber
berzerkly
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Nov 11, 2011 - 04:53pm PT
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According to Pennsylvania law, it looks like if you are at the top of the reporting chain, you better call the police. Gee, what could go wrong with a system like that?
Looks like that may change with this Pennsylvania bill.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Nov 11, 2011 - 05:11pm PT
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LEB
your take on human nature is a bit naive.
Certainly what you say is morally "true" but people don't work that way.
When you think something is a big deal you take action regarding the matter. Yes, but instead of reporting to the police, you cover it up and hope no one finds out.
Nixon-Watergate
etc
etc
etc
I believe they KNEW it was a Very Big Deal and would be very embarrassing to the Foosball program and would cost them big $$$ in lost financial support.
Of course if what you say in this case is true, that is they thought it was no big deal, then the entire PennState athletic command chain is morally bankrupt.
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adam d
climber
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Nov 11, 2011 - 05:46pm PT
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It is sort of like pot.
It is nothing like pot.
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adam d
climber
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Nov 11, 2011 - 06:04pm PT
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It wasn't unclear. Comparing tolerating marijuana use and tolerating child rape...not even remotely the same.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 11, 2011 - 06:07pm PT
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Joe might be the fall guy in this and of course he should of done more but those who saw this first hand really had to settle this on the spot. Anything less is just cowardly and pathetic.
John, there you go focusing on facts rather than being content to cast blame on the biggest fish. You know how little logic matters on the internet.
First, I think the Penn State Trustees are acting honorably in a no win situation. Everyone in the chain of command gets canned, whether what they did was legal or not. The graduate assistant and Paterno both complied with their legal duty, but could have done more and didn't. Despite Joe Pa's popularity and years of honorable service, he's uncerimoniously dumped. It's easy for those of us removed from the situation to say that's the least they should do, but I find it a matter of uncommon clarity that the board voted unanimously to remove all of the people involved.
We also need to keep in mind the facts. Sandusky had not been on the Penn State staff for three years. Paterno did not see the incident, but reported what was reported to him. It's easy for me to say that, at the very least, he should have kicked him off campus immediately and severed connections with him until this matter was cleared up, but I have no connection with or affection for Penn State, and friendship doesn't -- and shouldn't -- work that way. A "friend" who automatically believes every allegation unfavorable to me is no friend.
Penn State is one of only two football programs never to have a post- WWII major violation (The only other is Stanford, which gets the best players money can buy, [take this with many grains of salt -- I went to Cal]) Paterno's failure to do what was right will cost him what he spent a lifetime of otherwise honorable conduct to build. I'm sorry, but I've made lots of mistakes in my life, so I have a very hard time condemning others without sympathy.
I'm not saying we're treating Joe Paterno unjustly. Rape is intolerable and desrves the strongest condemnation not only of the perp, but of any who condoned it by inaction. I feel outraged and protective of the boys that were victimized, and angry at the situation and people that allowed it. Nonetheless, I am very sorry for Paterno, too. Unfortunately, you can't stand next to a skunk and end up smelling like a rose, and Sandusky has managed to hurt not only the boys, but several of his friends as well. The fact that they brought it on themselves for doing too little doesn't make it less of a tragedy to my eyes.
John
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hobo_dan
Social climber
Minnesota
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Nov 11, 2011 - 06:18pm PT
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Think of being a small boy and seeing someone show up to rescue you
and then they turn away to go talk to their dad about what they saw and what they should do about it
One is a monster and another is a worm
both should be shot
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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Nov 11, 2011 - 07:50pm PT
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what about the ows protesters who are covering up sexual assault? are they morally bankrupt, too?
sandusky was revered almost as highly as paterno...he's the reason psu is known as linebacker-u; though no longer a part of the staff, he was a near constant presence...the 28-year-old would be accusing one of his heroes for the most heinous crime imaginable, bringing shame on his university, and, as proven, causing everyone's favorite coach to be fired in disgrace--that's a heavy load even for a grown man (and who knows how much pressure he might have received to keep quiet--to protect his own budding career)...i can't honestly say that i would have had the strength to carry that load at 28...i pray i have that strength, now
the article i posted earlier explains how we're ALL at fault to a certain degree
anyone else remember this case:
Remember McMartin
Philip Terzian
November 11, 2011 1:27 PM
I react to the allegations of child abuse and obstruction of justice at Penn State with a certain reserve. This is not because I regard pedophilia as a victimless crime, or worship at the shrine of Joe Paterno. It is because, as a staffer at the Los Angeles Times in the 1980s, I witnessed the beginnings of the McMartin preschool case, and so was present at the creation of a strange and disturbing interlude in American history.
For the uninitiated, the McMartin preschool case involved a nursery school in Manhattan Beach, California run for several years by four generations of the McMartin family. In 1983, one mother of one student reported to the police that her son had been molested by an employee—although it was reported at the time that the child, in later interviews, disputed the allegation. But in due course the police sent a letter of inquiry to other parents, and testimony began rolling in. Students, assisted by psychologists and counselors, reported that they had been repeatedly raped, forced to watch animal mutilation, were sexually abused while flying in balloons, witnessed satanic rituals, played a game with teachers called "Naked Cowboy," and were driven through extensive underground tunnels.
With maximum publicity, all four generations of McMartins were arrested and indicted for child sexual abuse, and stories began circulating (repeated in the press) about other nursery schools in California and the West Coast, where children were subjected en masse to satanic sexual practices and ritual mutilation.
At this point I make one brief entrance in the story. I recall discussing with the op-ed editor of the Times my concerns about the story's validity. Having met her one evening in the Times newsroom, the mother of the initial McMartin accuser appeared (to me) to be seriously disturbed—she died of alcoholism in the midst of the subsequent trial—and I was equally dubious about the judgment of the reporter leading the coverage. I remember saying to the editor that it was entirely possible, perhaps even plausible, that abuse had occurred at the McMartin school, but that many of the allegations (balloons, tunnels, disemboweled rabbits, Naked Cowboy etc.) defied credulity. My suggestion that the Times invite someone with psychiatric credentials to speculate about the element of hysteria in the case—and the possibility that the stories might be fantasies—was greeted with horror by the op-ed editor, and summarily rejected.
As we now know, the McMartin preschool case was a complete invention. But in the course of the next decade it led to dozens of comparable cases across the United States involving similar allegations of years of ritual abuse and misconduct in nursery schools, featuring bizarre sexual practices and satanic rituals. Worst of all, it inspired police agencies, psychologists, social workers, journalists, and prosecutors to embark on literal witch-hunts, resulting in the conviction and imprisonment of dozens of innocent people. It took yet another decade for the imaginary epidemic of pre-school sexual abuse to subside, and years to free those who had been falsely imprisoned.
It has always intrigued me that, in a culture that is relentlessly self-critical, there has never been a scholarly account of the pre-school hysteria and witch-hunts of the 1980s and '90s in America. Dorothy Rabinowitz of the Wall Street Journal did heroic work on the subject—largely involving a case in Massachusetts—for which she was belatedly awarded a Pulitzer prize. But to my knowledge this curious and disconcerting episode has attracted little, if any, notice among historians and social analysts.
Which is odd: We moderns like to think that we are exempt from some of the baser instincts of human nature, but hysteria, mob rule, and spectral fears are still very much with us. Moreover, in this instance, the American judicial system failed systematically, blighting hundreds of lives: Many more genuinely innocent people went to prison, and for longer terms, than any Communist during the McCarthy era. And the parallels with the Salem witch trials are nearly complete—except, perhaps, for the fact that the judges in Salem (notably Samuel Sewall) were considerably more learned and deliberate than contemporary jurists.
As for Penn State, let us allow the machinery of the law to proceed, and see what happens.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Nov 11, 2011 - 08:23pm PT
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Watch out Bookworm...You'l be the next one to get canned...
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reddirt
climber
PNW
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Nov 11, 2011 - 08:42pm PT
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This does very little for the victims... but Penn State may be getting (even more) hits where it really hurts.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/11/11/news/economy/penn_state_downgrade/
Moody's reviews Penn State for downgrade
By Tami Luhby @CNNMoney November 11, 2011: 7:03 PM ET
NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Moody's Investors Service is reviewing the risk to Penn State's reputation and finances in the wake of a child sex abuse scandal that has rocked the university.
In coming months, the credit rating agency will evaluate whether the university should be downgraded. Penn State carries the second highest credit rating, reflecting very strong student demand and a strong national academic brand.
The university has about $1 billion in rated debt.
The Pennsylvania Attorney General earlier this week filed criminal charges against a former assistant football coach, as well as perjury and other charges against two senior university officials. The subsequent firestorm cost famed head football coach Joe Paterno and the university president their jobs.
The scandal could also cost the university millions of dollars, particularly in merchandise sales and sponsorships.
Its revenue of $72.7 million from football last season was the fifth highest of any college program in the country, according to a CNNMoney analysis of figures reported by each school to the Department of Education.
Penn State: $53 million in profits at stake
And Penn State football's profit of $53.2 million was second only to the University of Texas' total of $71.2 million.
The full impact of the increased risks will unfold over years, Moody's said. It will evaluate the risks from potential lawsuits, settlements, weaker student demand, management changes and fundraising challenges.
Penn State is Pennsylvania's flagship public university with more than 80,000 students and operating revenues of $4.6 billion.
CNNMoney senior writer Chris Isidore contributed to this story. To top of page
First Published: November 11, 2011: 6:54 PM ET
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Nov 11, 2011 - 08:46pm PT
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Its revenue of $72.7 million from football last season was the fifth highest of any college program in the country, according to a CNNMoney analysis of figures reported by each school to the Department of Education.
Penn State: $53 million in profits at stake
Penn State athletics had plenty of incentive to cover up Sandusky's horror show. Not the least of which Sandusky had been front and center on most of their televised games.
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Jorroh
climber
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Nov 11, 2011 - 09:49pm PT
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"Unfortunately, you can't stand next to a skunk and end up smelling like a rose"...especially when you're a bit of a skunk yourself.
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ChampionSleeper
Trad climber
Phoenix, AZ
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Nov 11, 2011 - 11:19pm PT
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Does it bother anyone else that people make a huge deal out of this stuff when it involves celebrities or political figures but no one could give two sh!ts when its just some Joe Shmoe?
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Nov 12, 2011 - 01:34am PT
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Maybe I'm missing something here, but did this poor child not tell anyone - parents? Anybody? And wouldn't the police have been notified by them and this heinous creep stopped or at least arrested at the time?
It's mind boggling to me that none of these eye witnesses did anything at the time of the crime nor did they immediately called the police. Rape is a crime, child molestation is a crime. Period. it's sickening.
Re. Paterno and the other University staff - talk about an old boys club...
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 12, 2011 - 03:45am PT
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Persons required to report suspected child abuse - 23 Pa. Cons. Stat. § 6311
Legal Research Home > Pennsylvania Statutes
§ 6311. Persons required to report suspected child abuse.
(a) General rule.--A person who, in the course of employment, occupation or practice of a profession, comes into
contact with children shall report or cause a report to be made
in accordance with section 6313 (relating to reporting
procedure) when the person has reasonable cause to suspect, on
the **basis of medical, professional or other training and
experience**, that a child under the care, supervision, guidance
or training of that person or of an agency, institution,
organization or other entity with which that person is
affiliated is a victim of child abuse, including child abuse by
an individual who is not a perpetrator........
(b) Enumeration of persons required to report.--Persons
required to report under subsection (a) include, but are not
limited to, any licensed physician, osteopath, medical examiner,
coroner, funeral director, dentist, optometrist, chiropractor,
podiatrist, intern, registered nurse, licensed practical nurse,
hospital personnel engaged in the admission, examination, care
or treatment of persons, Christian Science practitioner, member
of the clergy, school administrator, school teacher, school
nurse, social services worker, day-care center worker or any
other child-care or foster-care worker, mental health
professional, peace officer or law enforcement official.
(c) Staff members of institutions, etc.--Whenever a person
is required to report under subsection (b) in the capacity as a
member of the staff of a medical or other public or private
institution, school, facility or agency, that person shall
immediately notify the person in charge of the institution,
school, facility or agency or the designated agent of the person
in charge. Upon notification, the person in charge or the
designated agent, if any, shall assume the responsibility and
have the legal obligation to report or cause a report to be made
in accordance with section 6313. This chapter does not require
more than one report from any such institution, school, facility
or agency.
§ 6313. Reporting procedure.
(a) General rule.--Reports from persons required to report
under section 6311 (relating to persons required to report
suspected child abuse) shall be made immediately by telephone
and in writing within 48 hours after the oral report.
(b) Oral reports.--Oral reports shall be made to the
department pursuant to Subchapter C (relating to powers and
duties of department) and may be made to the appropriate county
agency. When oral reports of suspected child abuse are initially
received at the county agency, the protective services staff
shall, after seeing to the immediate safety of the child and
other children in the home, immediately notify the department of
the receipt of the report, which is to be held in the pending
complaint file as provided in Subchapter C. The initial child
abuse report summary shall be supplemented with a written report
when a determination is made as to whether a report of suspected
child abuse is a founded report, an unfounded report or an
indicated report.
§ 6319. Penalties for failure to report or to refer.
A person or official required by this chapter to report a
case of suspected child abuse or to make a referral to the
appropriate authorities who willfully fails to do so commits a
misdemeanor of the third degree for the first violation and a
misdemeanor of the second degree for a second or subsequent
violation.
So, the mandatory reporters are LICENSED professionals; a teacher would be one, a graduate student would definitely not be.
I don't know what the statute of limitations would be on something like this, but as a third degree misdemeanor, I'd imagine that it would be a few years or so.
So it would seem that Paterno would be on the hook, legally, but would get off due to time, and the assistant would be off the hook, as not a mandatory reporter.
LEB, under the hypothetical that you'd posed, you are a mandatory reporter, if you did not report, irrespective of what your boss told you to do, you would be COMMITTING A CRIME. You should understand your professional responsibilities "a tad" bid more thoroughly. You do not have a choice in the matter. If your employer takes any action against you, they are commiting ANOTHER crime:
(d) Civil action for discrimination against person filing
report.--Any person who, under this section, is required to
report or cause a report of suspected child abuse to be made and
who, in good faith, makes or causes the report to be made and,
as a result thereof, __is discharged from his employment or in any
other manner is discriminated against__ with respect to
compensation, hire, tenure, terms, conditions or privileges of
employment, may commence an action in the court of common pleas
of the county in which the alleged unlawful discharge or
discrimination occurred for appropriate relief. **If the court
finds** that the person is an individual who, under this section,
is required to report or cause a report of suspected child abuse
to be made and who, in good faith, made or caused to be made a
report of suspected child abuse and, **as a result thereof, was
discharged or discriminated against** with respect to
compensation, hire, tenure, terms, conditions or privileges of
employment, **it may issue an order granting appropriate relief,
including, but not limited to, reinstatement with back pay.** The
department may intervene in any action commenced under this
subsection.
Let them do it, you will make a fortune.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Nov 12, 2011 - 03:48am PT
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Maybe I'm missing something here, but did this poor child not tell anyone - parents? Anybody? And wouldn't the police have been notified by them and this heinous creep stopped or at least arrested at the time?
It's mind boggling to me that none of these eye witnesses did anything at the time of the crime nor did they immediately called the police. Rape is a crime, child molestation is a crime. Period. it's sickening.
Re. Paterno and the other University staff - talk about an old boys club...
something like 1 out of 4 girls are molested and 1 out of 6 boys. Way less than 1 in 10 assaults are EVER reported.
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JohnRoe
Trad climber
State College, PA
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Nov 12, 2011 - 07:43am PT
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I work at Penn State, but I was away from campus the first half of this week. Campus was funereal yesterday, almost like I remember it after 9/11... except that this time, horrific crimes were traced not to an organization almost all had never heard of, but to an organization almost all revered.
But last night, thousands of students gathered on campus for a vigil in support of sexual abuse victims. That gave me some hope.
There has been much talk of course of "what I would have done" if the speaker had known of or witnessed children being victimized. But however much I or anyone may wish to have been the savior, the fact is that we were not present and could not help. What I can do, though, is to set a humble but firm intention to speak up in the future, if I hear of or see something that is wrong.
Doing that - and thinking through in concrete ways how I would carry out that intention if I needed - feels a little like practicing a rescue skill (CPR or a belay escape or something like that). If the intention and the concrete steps are in the mind already, they will be carried out. If they aren't, it may not be heroism but cowardice that takes over at the moment when I have to act.
Remember (and pray for, if you pray) those who were victimized. JoePa is a sideshow.
Thanks for listening
JohnR
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Nov 12, 2011 - 11:31am PT
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Old man Joe heard this news second hand, well after the fact, and immediately went to the authorities.
Like I said, he did not follow up to make sure justice was served, and that was his fault and he'll pay for that forever. However the actual eye witness, and the chumps who lied about this in court, should be thrown in jail for years.
Joe might be the fall guy in this and of course he should of done more but those who saw this first hand really had to settle this on the spot. Anything less is just cowardly and pathetic.
I can see why someone outside could take this view, but that's not how a large college athletics program works. for a start, at a place like penn state, even a university president can't be hired if someone like joepa (and all of his donor allies and the rest of his political constituency) really works to stop it.
and while the athletic director might look like joepa's"boss" on a flowchart, he's not-- no ad could ever be hired at a place like penn state unless he fit into a power triangle of joepa/wealthydonors/president. joepa might not have had the power to unilaterally choose his own AD, but he certainly held power of veto and he had far more actual, working political power on and around campus than any AD would ever have.
joepa, btw, didn't immediately speak to the ad either. he waited a day, presumably getting his ducks in a row. 12 years this has festered. we're talking insane civil liability and a huge hit to the university's recruiting program because for most of the world, let's face it, penn state is only on the map because of football.
this piece in the chron talks about how the prez tried to push joepa out but couldn't:
Mr. Spanier tried to oust Mr. Paterno when his last contract was up, in 2004, but the coach resisted and the president lacked the support to remove him, several people recounted. "Graham tried to bring Coach Paterno under control, but he didn't have the power to do it," said one source close to the program. "For all the rules that apply to intercollegiate athletics, there was an asterisk—except if Joe wants to do it differently."
http://chronicle.com/article/An-Icon-Fallsa-President/129766/
Big school athletics programs bear no resemblance, at all, to the small hs programs or even the jc programs that many of us grew up in. these are massive corporate enterprises run in large part from off campus by unelected and unappointed donors and alumni. on campus big athletics programs are a shadow organization with their own scholarly, judicial and administrative apparatus. imagine a sort of mix of haliburton and the catholic church grafted onto a university and you start to get a picture.
and that's why this story deserves the attention it's getting-- it is more significant than the average, isolated child abuse case because of that institutional context. and it's also the reason joepa richly deserves the end he's going to get-- a handful of declining years in public shame, surrounded by lawyers as his estate struggles to keep the civil suits from taking the liquid assets.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Nov 12, 2011 - 12:43pm PT
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Ken M, in explaining your theory that Paterno is criminally liable (a theory that Pennsylvania police and prosecutors oconsidered and rejected), you cited a statute but left out a relevant subsection:
(c) Staff members of institutions, etc.--Whenever a person
is required to report under subsection (b) in the capacity as a
member of the staff of a medical or other public or private
institution, school, facility or agency, that person shall
immediately notify the person in charge of the institution,
school, facility or agency or the designated agent of the person
in charge. Upon notification, the person in charge or the
designated agent, if any, shall assume the responsibility and
have the legal obligation to report or cause a report to be made
in accordance with section 6313. This chapter does not require
more than one report from any such institution, school, facility
or agency.
You've got some other whacky ways of looking at this as well: is a football coach a licensed teacher? (I don't think that's all that relevant myself, but you seem to use that to distinguish the potential liability of Paterno and the grad student).
I think we've got to respect the judgment of the police and prosecutors that Paterno is not criminally culpable, and not just for statute of limitations issues. There are reports that Paterno has hired or at least consulted with a high-power criminal defense lawyer, and perhaps the issues are not completely clear cut.
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