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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Healje,
Are you planning to make hammers for commercial production, or just for friends and stuff. Can I get my name on the list for one?
As far as sharp corners as far as Bryan mentioned, sounds good for beaks in corners, but also sounds sharp. My hammer is ussualy flopping around at my side, and I wouldn't want too sharp of corners on it. Especially when you are pressed into a corner.
Maybe that's not an issue.
With a longer handle I can see you needing to be more accurate, and I don't really think hammers need more driving force for general Yosemite use, a few taps on a pin in a pin scar is ussualy enough. Mybe harder walls or more extreme aid would require a heavier hammer, and I guess Bryan does that stuff...
cool.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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I have an unfinished A5 hammer head that John tossed in with about fifty unfinished beaks he sold me. It's pretty much right off the forging dies, except for the partially-drilled funkness hole.
The face edges are not rounded at all, and have very sharp, cut-yourself, edges. Also, the face is shiny with machining marks, unlike the rest of the hammer. It looks like two hammers were forged as siamese twins, and then cut apart.
This would make sense, because it would eliminate the horizontal reaction forces (and wear) on the expensive forging dies.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2007 - 10:36pm PT
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Tom, could we get you to either lend that hammer head to us for a bit or post good photos of all sides of it - none of us have seen one straight off the forge relative to what the finishing work will entail.
Lambone, the plan is we'd do a run of 250 of them with John and Conrad's blessings and will charge cost + shipping + a donation to the Alex Lowe Charitable Foundation and their Khumbu Climbing School which helps increase the technical competency of Nepali people who work and climb in the mountain regions.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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I'll shoot and post some photos of that unfinished A5 head. It looks just like the photos Steve posted, except for maybe a bit of roughness at the parting line, down the sides.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Why yes Russ, I do have one. Not getting rid of it for less than the cost of tuition for say, an smh credential program, though.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Wasn't that hammer called Molinjar? The Forest one.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2007 - 02:27am PT
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Dirt,
Yes, at least one of Bill's hammers was a Molinjar. I have one and it is a great hammer, just a tad light and stiff.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Thanks HJE.
For those who don't know already, Molinjar was the name of Thor's hammer
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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"Lambone, the plan is we'd do a run of 250 of them with John and Conrad's blessings and will charge cost + shipping + a donation to the Alex Lowe Charitable Foundation and their Khumbu Climbing School which helps increase the technical competency of Nepali people who work and climb in the mountain regions."
Dude, right on! Sign me up!
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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And Lo, the BD hammer was good.
It's name..... Mungillgnar!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2007 - 08:39pm PT
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Got this from Lewis McNeal of Seymour Link Handle with notes on the wedging...
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Hello Mr. Healy,
Please reference the below drawing.
Wooden wedges are used to push the wood in the handle eye in two directions and the flat wedge locks the wooden wedge in place. Using just a flat steel wedge in an unslotted eye will probably cause the handle to split and crack in unpredictable places.
Placement and orientation of the steel wedge is a judgment call after examining the grain orientation of the handle. Typically the wedge is oriented at 90 degrees to the grain. Another type of wedge is round and pushes the wood in all directions. The wedge is shaped like a hollow cone with a lip around the small end.
And, yes we sell wedges.
Lewis McNeal
Seymour Manufacturing
Link Handle Division
219 Handle Street
Sequatchie, TN 37374
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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If wall use and a funkness hole are in the picture, the conventional pitched hook straps are mandatory. Wedged wood against the formed head alone is likely going to lead to head loosening as contact points on the hardwood inevitably compress and wear open.
Neither of my hammers has any wooden wedge present since the tapered handle does the same job while snugging into the hookstraps until the transverse pin can be drilled, driven and peened.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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I didn't measure my A5 head, but, I think the usual thing is to have the hole taper outwards and up, so that the the wedges lock the handle in solidly.
I've always removed a broken hammer or axe handle by cutting it off at the base of the head, and driving the rest out the top.
I have a slip-removed handle of a c. 1972 Chouinard ice hammer, which has a wedge in it. I have no idea if I drove it in, maybe 20 years ago, to secure the head.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 8, 2007 - 12:49am PT
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We are definitely using the hookstraps! Lewis, is simply suggesting it would be better to use a wooden wedge as well. The A5 doesn't have a traverse pin, though if you were to add a wooden wedge then that seems like it might be a good addition even if it means incurring the additional cost of another drilling.
Edit: Steve, I see you were speaking of the traverse pin in the handle. I was speaking of a traverse pin through the head as sported on the McDevitt hammer. I can understand the view a wooden wedge would be redundant, but it appears that at least some folks have had to retighten the head...
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Here are some photos of the raw A5 hammer head I have.
After looking at it, it seems that after forging it, some other operations by the forging company took place. The flashing at the parting line was ground off, and it was sandblasted. There are still some grinding marks at the parting line, showing through the sandblasting.
Striations passing completely through the hammer hole indicate that it was sized by a movable slide/punch in the forging die. Alternatively, a secondary operation in different dies may have been performed. There is some sandblasting evidence within the hole.
The face does not have a sandblasted finish, and is shiny and quite different from the other surfaces.
The photos Steve posted show a more finished, smoother head. John may have sanded them, or otherwise cleaned the outer surfaces a bit. For example, the parting line is not nearly as prominent in the photos Steve posted. My impression is that this would not be necessary, especially for a tool intended for use by hard-core wall monkeys.
Now then:
As soon as I have some spare $$$ and find a shop that can properly heat treat the 4142 steel, I will have the head hardened so I can use it. As a bonus, I'll have the shop also heat treat the fifty-odd A5 beaks I have, so I will finally have enough pins to go up and nail the Triple Cracks on the Shield 8-)
EDIT: When the open source A5 Birdbeak project takes off, here's something to look at. It's the milling jig, used to cut the taper of the business end. John told me that Walt Shipley made this for him. It's a flat plate that was mounted on a tilted base of some sort, maybe a block held in a vise.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 8, 2007 - 12:03pm PT
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Tom,
Wow!!! Great contribution. Had no idea the funk hole was partially forged - curious why it isn't forged from both sides. And the corners of the face are square, meaning they are rounded over in finishing which, if someone didn't want that, could be skipped.
As far as the Beaks end of the project goes, Bryan and Theron have been hard at it on a new design. They've made a few rounds of prototypes and will be looking into the cost of having a new stamping die made by the same folks who have the existing A5 (Hurricane) Beak die. I'd still be interested in the interest on the old design as well. The quote we got was for 2500 of them at $.075 each.
The die shot is also fantastic! Do you have the die? As far as heat treating goes I suspect Theron could set you up with someone.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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The funk hole was drilled, not forged. The head I have is a reject, with the funk hole offset by about 1/16" to one side. The hole was drilled about halfway through. I'll probably drill it the rest of the way and ignore that it's a bit to one side.
If you have new dies made for the hammer, you should probably have the funk hole punched along with the handle hole. They're parallel to each other, and perpendicular to the parting line.
I have that beak machining jig. Looking closely at the beaks, it actually looks like the taper on the tips was cut with a grinder or sander, which makes more sense than milling. The jig might have been mounted to a block that had stops, so it could be pressed against a belt sander to cut the taper precisely.
Who has the original A5 hammer dies? And the Birdbeak dies?
Any time you have a part made, you should own the tooling yourself. If the shop owns the tooling you're constrained to working with them. The shop will charge you to make the tooling, so you should have full ownership of it. Naturally, they'll resist this, at first.
It's like an ISP wanting to own your domain name: don't do it.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 8, 2007 - 04:19pm PT
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Ajax the original forger in LA has the hammer mold and WLS the stamping outfit in Cleveland remarkably still has the 'Hurricane' Beak die. Tracking down the right handle has been the biggest deal.
Thanks for the clarification on the hole! I was wondering about that as well as why the funk hole couldn't be forged as well - have to ask John, but I suspect the answer is a freestanding post that size wouldn't hold up over a lot of heads, but who knows...
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Jun 11, 2007 - 11:19pm PT
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So, it seems that the forging dies for the hammer, and stamping/blanking dies for the Hurricane beak are still viable, regardless of who owns them.
This regards the Beak, not the Hammer:
The beak jig I have has two flaws: it has no ability to hold the part; it doesn't have a way to hold the angle for cutting the taper at the tip.
I think Walt's jig was intended for use with separate means for securing it, at the proper angle, to the machine. This would entail some sort of additional setup time, with another piece of hardware.
If I was cutting the taper on those beaks, I'd use a jig, with a hold-down, and then sand/grind the taper on a belt sander, the angled jig resting on a 90-degree table to the belt. Adjustable stops would allow cutting the taper just right.
I don't see how it could be done any easier, and have a very short set-up time.
NOW, THEN, BACK TO THE HAMMER:
I think some level of artisan work on the rough pieces from the forging company is in order. If open-source, maybe just let the user clean the parts up, as they see fit. The handle hole could be an issue; but otherwise, the part seems good, right off the dies.
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T Moses
Trad climber
Paso Robles
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Jul 15, 2007 - 08:36pm PT
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I went climbing and missed the discussion here in June.
I would like to report progress on all fronts. The prototype beaks (hopefully the last round) are in the deburr tumbler as I type this. They will get the taper and bend Tuesday most likely. Then shipment to Bryan for approval and testing.
I think we have finally found the correct hammer handle. It is close enough to give it a try. I think we still need to work out the wedge if we are going to use one. The A5 handle was sawed off at a angle to match the top of the head. That threw me off for a little in regards to length.
Tom: I have two new handles and would love to use your head as a test case. In return I think you would get a completed hammer with handle and tangs. If you haven't already gotten your stuff heattreated I would love to piggyback some stuff in with you. I have some new style beaks, russian aider hooks, and some old style beaks that I would like to get done. Let me know if you are interested.
Here is some food for thought. Sorry for the poor quality of photo in a couple of the shots.
A5 next to McDevit Hammer:
Side view of A5 Head:
Side view of McDevit Head:
Top view of A5 Head:
Top view of McDevit Head:
New Handle next to A5 Hammer:
Bottom of A5 Handle and New Handle:
IMHO the A5 is a superior design. The square (as opposed to sharp) corners don't seem to be an issue. The balance/feel of the A5 is phenomenally good.
I would love to hear some more feedback on this.
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