Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Phil Olinick
Boulder climber
There
|
|
|
May 28, 2011 - 05:05am PT
|
I didn't spell it correctly. So what? I work in three languages, so my spelling suffers. So, are you a dealer, and is your first name Rich, and did any of his carabiners break?
|
|
Phil Olinick
Boulder climber
There
|
|
|
May 28, 2011 - 05:16am PT
|
1. His partner removed the pieces. Maybe the leader had lost consciousness.
2. The carabiners broke. (Bad metal. Or over an edge. I've never heard of either happening.)
3. The rope vibrated out of the gates. (Multiple biners. Highly unlikely.)
4. The carabiner gates were stuck open. (Multiple biners. Highly unlikely.)
5. The leader untied somewhere, and the loose gear dropped off of the rope.
6. His partner was mad at him and took the gear.
|
|
BillL
Trad climber
NM
|
|
|
May 28, 2011 - 09:51am PT
|
Kush, You mentioned this ...
"... we left a lot of gear kind of strewn / plugged in at the belay station and above on the route."
... and this ...
"Our rope, though that would need to be decommissioned after the 2x fall."
By 2X fall I think you mean that at the end of your fall you were hanging directly off the belay at the anchor. Is that the case or were you hanging off of the pieces higher on the route with the rope running up there and then back down to the belayer? Steve?
Bill L
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
May 28, 2011 - 10:40am PT
|
I've seen biners break and nut cables break during falls ....
|
|
Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
|
|
|
May 28, 2011 - 10:52am PT
|
Check out his TR - it is very detailed. He ended up far below his belayer.
|
|
BillL
Trad climber
NM
|
|
|
May 28, 2011 - 11:16am PT
|
Check out his TR - it is very detailed. He ended up far below his belayer. You are right. Also, the belayer estimated about 20 feet of rope went through his ATC.
I can appreciate Kush's (& Steve's) wanting to understand what exactly happened with the gear placed on lead: relatively inexperienced at traditional leading, dealing with the cold, getting banged up in a long fall ... distractions from the details to say the least!
Maybe Petch can say something about the state of the gear he found above their last belay ledge.
Bill
|
|
Tahoe climber
climber
Davis these days
|
|
|
May 28, 2011 - 12:19pm PT
|
My guess is that Petch is the only one who has a clue, as it sounds like he cleaned the situation up, or at least accepted the gear to hold from whoever did.
If Kush really did actually place four pieces, it's most likely in his hurry or in a stressed state he just forgot to clip the rope. Either that or one of them (or a rescuer) absent-mindedly cleaned the rope of gear while waiting on the chopper.
The pitch (really only a short half pitch to a ramp) takes good gear, no problem. I can think of probably 6 bomber placements between the belay and the little roof where he fell.
It's simply ridiculous to think that four carabiners broke or rattled open. Even discussing it, particularly on this pitch - low angle, multiple ledge-like features - means you fundamentally don't understand the situation. In no way could this fall have created enough force to break a carabiner, much less four of them. The fall had to have been a slow, bouncy one, with lots of rock contact/scraping and little to no air time. (Which makes the factor 2 fall comment hilarious, btw)
And fairly stupid to assume that four out of four pieces pulled, too.
If that many pieces pulled in a row, then it terrifies me to think they were climbing above his placements for the other two pitches...because it indicates he had almost no ability to judge whether a placement was sound or not.
Phil, sorry to lash out earlier without elaboration (and thanks, but I don't do drugs), but I would like to hear more of your "thoughts" about the possibilities for litigation here (who would sue who, and for what?) and what kind of climbing instruction was "purposely hidden" from these intrepid young climbers.
It's clear neither is a possibility in reality.
The team made a number of mistakes. Here's some of them:
1) Showed up late - very late for climbers with their skillset
2) Were climbing on brand new, likely unfamiliar gear, as they were taking tags off in the parking lot
3) Weren't fit enough (possibly) to do the line
4) Likely weren't able to judge whether a placement was sound or not
5) Moved very, very slowly when climbing
6) Were unaware of weather forecast
7) Were underdressed for storm conditions
8) Were simply too inexperienced to be trad climbing without a more experienced climber
9) No headlamps with them
10) Got rattled when the storm did move in
In short, they were incredibly lucky. A harder or steeper line could have had much worse results for this team, and despite it sounding as though Kush didn't have any real injuries beyond bruising, it's quite likely that their decision to call for a rescue after the fall saved these guys' lives. They just didn't have the experience (or the confidence) to deal.
TC
|
|
Phil Olinick
Boulder climber
There
|
|
|
May 28, 2011 - 12:43pm PT
|
@Tahoe: Context: you have to realize that I was baffled as to how the pieces could not be on the rope, so I was considering anything remotely possible.
I've never seen a rope fail, except over sharp edges like a car bumper. And I've never had a problem with a carabiner, or a stopper. But then I haven't seen anywhere near the traffic Werner has.
The litigation comment had nothing to do with the accident. Drop it.
As for the 10 mistakes which you list, I don't think anything on that list caused the problem. In fact, other than geting overly rattled, I've climbed safely doing pretty much everything on that list (omit 4 & 5). I've been climbing since 1975, and I've never been hurt. Although there is an old saying, which I do abide: Watch out for people with shiny biners. You, I can tell, fit in that category.
@Ron: I'm also concerned about the gear manufacturing. It's a very rough industry, with expensive certifications for products like carabiners. At least that was the case 15 years ago.
@all
I'm amazed that 20 feet of rope went through the belay device. I'm assuming that that was out of his control.
 How dynamic might that belay have been?
(I use a figure 8, so I can't quite recall if ATCs lock like a stitch plate might.
Do they?)
|
|
Tahoe climber
climber
Davis these days
|
|
|
May 28, 2011 - 12:47pm PT
|
No shiny carabiners on my rack, chief.
If you don't know how an ATC works then you don't belong in this conversation.
Adios.
|
|
BillL
Trad climber
NM
|
|
|
May 28, 2011 - 12:55pm PT
|
TC - nice succinct list. Kush identified most in the trip report but nice to have all in one place. Not sure about Kush's inability to judge if a placement was sound although Kush indicated he was failing to check for soundness near their high point.
The trip report photos show Steve trailing a second rope. Wonder if that was for bailing or for Shawn to come along as a threesome. Perhaps at least a good decision was made there to avoid the slowness of climbing as a threesome?
|
|
Phil Olinick
Boulder climber
There
|
|
|
May 28, 2011 - 01:19pm PT
|
@Tahoe: You missed the question: How could 20 feet of rope go through an ATC and not lock if hands were on the rope?
Vocabulary for Tahoe: Stitch plate, munter hitch, hip belay, DYNAMIC BELAY. Kid, you need an education, not more BD gear.
Tahoe, I do apologize for any offense I have caused you. But I don't see any reason I should not call a spade a spade, when people are literally dying due to ignorance. I think that people have kept their mouths shut long enough.
|
|
Phil Olinick
Boulder climber
There
|
|
|
May 28, 2011 - 01:47pm PT
|
@Ron: Don't forget your Google friends across the state line. Were they more interested in disseminating accurate information, perhaps we wouldn't have some of these problems.
|
|
utahman912
Social climber
SLC, UT
|
|
|
May 28, 2011 - 02:13pm PT
|
My generation never would have called for the rescue.
Rescues have nothing to do with generations... just the wisdom of knowing when you're in over your head. Good call by the party in question. They survived to climb another day, maybe because if it... and maybe because of the cell phone.
...and you shouldn't need a helmet at a heavily climbed area like Lover's Leap (which has an easy approach).
cuz helmets are only for rock fall? Brilliant
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
|
May 28, 2011 - 02:26pm PT
|
My generation never would have called for the rescue
Damn right. No one ever called for a climbing rescue until just a few years ago when people who don't belong on the rock started buying all this newfangled gear. Can you even imagine someone from the previous climbing generation being so dumb as to climb into bad weather and then get rescued?
Never would have happened. I mean, look at guys from the old school like, oh, I don't know, pick a couple of hardmen at random. Guys like Harding and Rowell. Can you imagine guys like that getting up on something and being unable to get themselves out of trouble because of bad weather?
Oh, wait, bad example. I guess those two were a couple of wieners who should have learned the basics better. No real climber would ever get in trouble.
|
|
Tahoe climber
climber
Davis these days
|
|
|
May 28, 2011 - 02:46pm PT
|
Phil: I'm no kid, and I don't need more gear or vocabulary. I've competently used all of the styles of belaying you describe.
No offense taken. It's clear you still don't understand the situation, so your judgement is at best uninformed. Your speech calls a spade a spade. You're an older, probably pretty nice guy, who likely doesn't climb often anymore, who doesn't know the specific climb we're talking about, although it's likely you are an experienced trad climber.
So, an ATC is a really common belay device for people that still climb. It's a fancy version of the Sticht plate. You can use it to belay dynamically by allowing your brake hand to gradually tighten more firmly on the rope when the leader falls, allowing some rope to slip through before finally locking down. This is similar to the way you would dynamically belay with a Figure 8 (which is rarely used these days as a belay device, though I've done it.)
However, the most likely answer to the question you keep asking (why did 20 feet of rope slip through the belay device) is that the belayer didn't do it on purpose. He wasn't ready or expecting a fall, and let some rope slide through his cold, numb hands before he tightened down enough to stop Kush.
No one answered you because it's too embarrassingly obvious, not because we lack reading comprehension or missed some salient point.
TC
|
|
BillL
Trad climber
NM
|
|
|
May 28, 2011 - 03:46pm PT
|
However, the most likely answer to the question you keep asking (why did 20 feet of rope slip through the belay device) is that the belayer didn't do it on purpose. He wasn't ready or expecting a fall, and let some rope slide through his cold, numb hands before he tightened down enough to stop Kush.
Or a slight variation ... the belayer was set for maximum braking assuming a pull from above and suddenly this was the worst position for braking. Takes a little time to react to that.
|
|
neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
|
|
|
May 28, 2011 - 04:49pm PT
|
hey there say, tantrikclimber....
i know i a bit late, here...
but saying a "glad you are okay and still here to be with all your family and loved ones" note...
:)
|
|
Phil Olinick
Boulder climber
There
|
|
|
May 28, 2011 - 06:12pm PT
|
@Utahman912: Imagine: A mobile phone only for a real emergency. I wonder if you can.
Helmets: Yes, helmets are primarily to protect against rock fall. Sure, accidents happen, and a helmet could help. And Ron, thanks for that tip. I finally understand that special OW levitation technique: so that's how you could move stacked hands without knees! Utahman, you've gotta try that!
@Ghost: Warren Harding would have called in for beer rescue. He would have kept an open line.
@Tahoe: You wrote: He wasn't ready or expecting a fall, and let some rope slide through his cold, numb hands before he tightened down enough to stop Kush.
So, you think that in some situations this constitutes an acceptable belay?! Poor Kush, running it out, his hands frozen like a block of ice, and he has to assume that he's climbing unroped?!
@BillL: Huh? What in the world are you talking about? Takes a little time...How much time, BillL, at 9 meters per second squared?!!! (you wrote: the belayer was set for maximum braking assuming a pull from above and suddenly this was the worst position for braking. Takes a little time to react to that.)
|
|
BillL
Trad climber
NM
|
|
|
May 28, 2011 - 08:04pm PT
|
@BillL: Huh? What in the world are you talking about? Takes a little time...How much time, BillL, at 9 meters per second squared?!!! You know the ol' rule of thumb to stay ~2 seconds behind the car in front of you? Takes about a second to react. The other second is time to react aggressively.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!