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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Research shows that being poor is a significant indicator to being victimized. So, do all poor victims deserve it? Are they asking for it? Not at all. Just like a provocatively dressed women is not asking for it or deserving of it.
The situation that happened is different that this though. One party did something that was highly likely going to cause trouble. He knew it, everyone knew it. He did it. But he didn't get hurt. No other third party individuals got killed and his actions contributed to that.
Or maybe you are saying the UN workers deserved it or asked for it by being there? I don't think so, but that is more in line with the women/rape analogy.
edit: btw, I think we are actually in agreement stzzo regarding the UN stuff.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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stzzo:
Research shows that being poor is a predictor HOLDING ALL OTHER THINGS CONSTANT. Other predictors - holding other things constant is alcohol use, and being male (with the sole exception of rape). Want to decrease your risk of being victimized? Don't be poor, don't use alcohol and don't be a male!
My only two points in my earlier comment is that (1) the rape analogy does not apply to the case of the Koran burner. Why? Because he - the burner - wasn't the one that got hurt. Third parties got hurt. And (2) having a characteristic that is associated with higher risk is NOT the same thing as 'asking for it.'
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that point. :)
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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I say that she is doing things that increase her risk, but she is not asking for it. In that situation, she likely doesn't even know what increases her risk as most folks have better things to do than read research on victimization. And most folks have exactly wrong ideas about those things associated with increased (or decreased risk). edit: and researchers have a ton of unanswered questions so the information may not even be available to anyone. /edit
Also, what we know about things associated with an increased risk is based on large groups of people and lots of incidents. It is impossible to provide a 'risk level' 'or risk number' or some such number to any one person given the amount of knowledge researchers have. If I could do that, I'd be RICH!!
There are many instances of people who have many characteristics associated with higher risk, yet are never victimized. And there are cases where folks get victimized and yet they have no characteristics associated with victimization (given our current understanding).
double edit: You didn't ask, but if you were to ask me the one thing any of us could do to increase our odds of being victimized, it would be to hang out with offenders. Sounds obvious, and it's the case. Stay away from bad guys (and don't be a bad guy) and your chances are reduced.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Avoid people with Y chromosomes, and you should be OK.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Except in very limited use, a long time ago I decided to put away the expressions "they deserved..." and "they asked for... " altogether - they we're just too troublesome - in regard to clearer communications and in regard to the deeper understanding of things.
-Unless of course the goal was/ is actually to stir up trouble. ;)
.....
For instance, just look how easily they're applied even to mishaps or tragedies in rockclimbing, esp by some non-rockclimbing group or community pushing an agenda.
(1) "Anyone who goes out in this weather deserves to die."
(2) "It's awful she died. But by climbing unroped in this section she asked for it.
Very argumentative, if not incensing, expressions.
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Mimi
climber
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If this was mentioned already, I didn't see it above, but the preacher knew what he was doing and did it anyway to call Islam out. He's entitled to his free speech opinion. Look what people do to Christian symbols all the time. If you ignore the PC interference about the Koran, you'd see that it is not a book of love nor tolerance of others.
That bafoon, Karzai, actually announced this event against good advice to 'his people.' The UN staff killings were carried out by Taliban savages, not the book burning protesting mob.
Edit: Petraeus and a NATO commander begged forgiveness for this heinous and unholy act. But none has been forthcoming.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Hornets will be hornets.
Or killers will be killers?
If someone in Afghanistan burned a bible, would you see mobs in America rounding up and killing random innocent people?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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The simple truth is,
my heart aches at the thought if not likelihood of the children of Afghanistan - the millions of them and esp the young girls too whose livelihoods would most be in jeopardy - once again falling under the barbaric rule of al Qaeda and Taliban and Sharia when U.S. forces pull out.
So if it were a choice of paths would I rather see...
(a) two million male Islamic militant fundamentalists coaxed out in the open (under some Quaran Burning protest and under the newly employed terry jones tactic - see above) and laid waste to amidst their righteous frenzy in the interest of reduced Sharia influence and further modernization; or
(b) peace or appeasement at the expense of 10 million children born this decade raised under Afghani Sharia and its enslavements (including again, no education for girls, because it goes against Allah's teaching)?
My answer: A. But am I afraid it's going to be more like B? Yes.
The U.S. Military should give themselves a couple of days to strategize (ala Jeff Probst, thx for the useful expression) and then go for it - employ the Terry Jones tactic. Better there than here. Better now than later.
Yeah, I know it's unrealistic but I wanted to express it anyhow.
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EDIT
Sharia is a cancer on this planet and it is a shame our theological illiteracy, our multiculturalism run amuck and our bending over backwards to observe political correctness combine - arguably, in and of its own pathology - to keep us en mass from recognizing this.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Yeah, I do believe there is such a thing as...
"antiquated barbaric cancers of ideas (or beliefs) in the human condition"
(a) that are made obvious by cultural evolution;
(b) that are pathogenic to the practice of living on this planet and needs to be combated whenever opportunity presents itself;
(c) that require attention now more than ever due to 7 billion on the planet where it's paramount to get along in fundamental ways.
Others may disagree.
So what.
It's a battle of ideas out there.
Fight the good fight. Don't shirk.
In the interest of better practices in living.
And climbing. ;)
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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So I'm supposed to believe in an all-powerful, omniscient god who knows all but still has to take a mulligan on the covenants? How does that work exactly?
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Sounds like a sly old trickster this God of yours, pulled a fast one on the jews eh?
It's like a kid and a sandcastle, they have to knock it down. Why would your god make mankind in the firstplace, much less as an imperfect being that he has to punish with everlasting agony if they don't get it right. Doesn't sound like a very loving character to me.
You want to know when and why I rejected your religion, the religion I was raised in? When I was about 8yrs old and heard, from a preacher, something along the lines of "all non-believers who don't accept JC as their savior will roast in a lake of fire for all eternity". Kid version of me says "WTF? What about the Indians, Chinese, people in BFE Africa who've never even heard of this religion...or grew up being taught a different religion...you mean to tell me if they are kind, compassionate, loving and good people that they're going to hell anyway because they're not down with JC?"
I have maintained for as long as I was old enough know and remember: Organized religion is the greatest plague ever visited upon humanity.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Not to mention all the humans who lived before JC was supposedly born. They should burn in hell because of that? Religious dogma is full of absurdities like that, where one must totally suspend one's disbelief.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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If this was mentioned already, I didn't see it above, but the preacher knew what he was doing and did it anyway to call Islam out. He's entitled to his free speech opinion.
I have always been of the impression that your right to point your finger, ends at my nose. That is to say, free speech ends when it causes physical injury to others.
Many people advised this guy what was likely to happen. He knew. He decided to go ahead.
If there is any doubt, think what would happen if you bought public access time on a tv station, and burned that book. Are you absolved of responsibility, because of your "free speech rights?"
Remember that he did not just burn the book. That was not his purpose. It was to get publicity for burning the book. To get a reaction. Possibly to have people die.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Dood,
Man, you gotta work on your spelling and punctuation skills.
My brother has the same problems with written English as you.
He is dyslexic.
Are you also? If so it would explain a LOT.
And Dood, what exactly was the point you wanted to make in your story about your black friend coming over for milk and cookies?
That your mother was not racially biased or something?
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dirtbag
climber
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Karzai deserves a lot of blame for drawing attention to the burning, which had actually almost slipped under the radar.
Nice "friend" he is.
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dirtbag
climber
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Don't crooked politicians have any integrity anymore?
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Mimi
climber
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What's also odd is that they hadn't even heard about the burning over there until days/weeks later when Karzai announced it knowing full well what would happen. And the NYT reported that it was Taliban who killed the UN staff, not the mob.
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Mimi
climber
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Naive is putting it nicely.
Arabs and their sympathizers were dancing in the streets in New Jersey on 9/11. Don't think it was one of their holidays. I'm sure it is now.
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