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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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I appreciate that Harihari posted this story. It is extremely valuable to get first person reports and perspectives.
Seems like the weather was the critical factor and you can't predict that. Without the weather the stranded couple would have had an uncomfortable cold night and a funny story. Has happened to most of us probably.
My impression is that the OP did his best to persuade and help the other parties. I won't question that. If he realized how bad the weather was going to get, he would have been a lot more adamant. If he had more experience getting large numbers of people down rappels quickly, he might have been more successful in moving the 3 ladies along, or they might have been just as intransigent. If he had enough warm gear in his car to safely go back up the mountain with extra gear for others (after protecting himself from hypothermia)maybe he would have done that, if he also had some hope of actually locating them.
My thoughts on the matter are just thoughts. I see no benefit in criticism.
Thanks again for posting this account. Gives most of us stuff to think about. Gives others a new topic to argue about.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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I am with Ghost on this one. I have been in similar situations where I tried as nicely and as non-threatingly as possible to give other climbers advice that would keep them from making serious mistakes. Almost all of those attempts were met with the same "don't tell ME what to do!"
It is one thing if you are all in the same situation for the same reason. But, putting your life on the line for someone who most likely is in dire straits because they told you to 'get lost' when you offered some very good advice is a completely different situation.
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jstan
climber
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We all have been in situations where speed made the whole difference. So it is this thread has everyone so jacked up. Two things to realize.
1. Such things are going to keep on happening.
2. If you were not there, it is best to say nothing.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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We all have been in situations where speed made the whole difference. So it is this thread has everyone so jacked up. Two things to realize.
1. Such things are going to keep on happening.
2. If you were not there, it is best to say nothing.
I love it when people write posts telling other people that they shouldn't say anything.
I guess deep in our hearts, we all believe rules are for other people.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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The thing that makes Lamebone's posturing so distasteful is that he was rescued himself from Glacier Peak about 10 years ago.
He's such a toughguy in the armchair today, but when he was actually in a similar situation...sudden turn in weather and ill equipped to descend in those conditions, no heroic antics ensued. Instead, the phone came out and a rescue was launched.
Morning came after what seemed like an eternity, yet the sun did not offer any relief. Visibility was still 0 and wind continued to howl. We call back to let 911 know of our situation. We were cold, wet, and beat, and I did not feel confident that I could lead us safely down the Sitcum in the whiteout. I knew we could do it with enough time, but given’ the conditions I assumed that one navigation error could lead to hypothermia and big trouble. Then I learned that our partner forgot to pack shell gloves, and the situation became even grimmer.
Attack the messenger if you want Lambone, the fact is you're a hypocrite and self-imagined armchair hero, and it's a pattern of behavior with you.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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All I know is that Joseph set the bar real damn high. I'll screw the story up but it's most likely close to this. He was walking out at the end of a full value day climbing and hears "help help" from up high. Some people had gotten their rope stuck on rappel, and they are asking to get SAR sent out to get them down. JH says he will as and does. Turns out, they aren't going to get to it that night, so the benighted party will get to sit on a ledge and freeze in t-shirts and shorts till the AM when sar is planning on going.
Not finding anyone interested in getting it done, JH grabs his sh#t, drives out to the park exit, hikes the 4 or 5 miles down the road, then up the trail to the base of the climb. Rope solos a 5.9 in the freezing cold and pitch dark, getting to the extremely grateful people who believe that he has actually saved their lives at 3am.
That said: I wasn't in the area or I'd have been with him to help, and I'm going with the usual wisdom of Jstan on this issue as well. None of us were there for this incident, and the original posters actions did save these folks.
Warm regards to all
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Why, the HELL, do we care about your ignorant friends or yourself. Because ghost asked...
Elcapinyoura*#, I love how you bring that up everytime you need something to use against me. You are awesome. But I don't get your point. From my experience I know what it feels like to be helpless and stranded. So no I couldn't just walk away from people needing help. Maybe you think I'm full of sh#t. Go f*#k yourself.
Even if I wasn't capable of helping, I wouldnt go posting a thread here sh#t talking the poor people to make some kind of example of them.
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Lambone does have a few points here, whether he is trolling or not.
Expecting advanced climbing from noobs on a 5.6 is a bit much.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Because ghost asked...
And I appreciate your answer. Certainly no intent on my part to get in anyone's face. I just felt that given the conditions (rain/snow mixed, darkness, temps near freezing, winds near 60) that virtually no one would be able to do anything, and that harshly-worded criticism was uncalled for.
I still feel that way.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nice locker. I think that is a photo of somebody in this thread.
Who is the ringmaster for this circus anyway?
Oh yeah, thats right, largely absent.
How Lord Of The Flies do we have to get anyhow?
I've worked with SAR teams since the '70s.
When it comes to SAR work the hardest task of all means being a hero and the easiest task of all means being a fukking monday morning quarterback.
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harihari
Trad climber
Squampton
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2011 - 02:44pm PT
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Lambone, you come off as a jerk, but you do bring up good points, so thanks for that. As the OP I have a few things to add
a) It was, categorically, impossible to re-climb the route to help the in-danger party. Lambone, you know what sandstone does when it's wet?
b) It was also impossible to stay there-- we were getting slowly soaked, freezing, without food or shelter, etc. ANY SAR person will tell you two things-- don't make the situation worse, and take care of yourself.
c) The snails were annoying but didn't cause anybody problems other than slowing the descent.
d) It was impossible to sleep that night, knowing that those folk were out there and there was little we could do.
e) Sorry about the thread title, I just wanted folks to have the chance to see how easily (and quickly) things can go pear-shaped. BTW I've had self-induced idiot epics too, but I have not had to be rescued.
f) Also, you don't second-guess SAR. That evening there was also a rescue of a hiking party, and so maybe SAR were busy, exhausted, minus available climber-rescuers, etc etc. Not my place to question their leadership.
And to BASE-- dunno who you are, but I certainly don't recall laughing at the situation the next day, or bagging on gumbies.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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harihari,
I admit to being a jerk to you. That is because when I first read your "trip report" it really kinda pissed me off. Mainly the way it was written as opposed to the circumstances of the event. I also get the whole point of 'sharing the story so everyone can learn the lesson.' That's admirable enough, I just don't think it needs to be done in a derogatory way, the climbers suffered enough. I guess my reaction probably came from how I felt after my rescue experience and everyone tore me up for it.
I felt like some assumptions were made about what went wrong with the victim party that really you may not have been in the position to make. Who knows why they were benighted? Maybe they had a rope get stuck or something...I felt like you really tore them up as being inadequate climbers. But you weren't in there shoes, and even though you were in the proximity, you don't even have all the information.
I get it now that it was not possible to go up and help them and I take your word for it. My first post in this thread was "Why the f*#k didn't you go back up and help them?" That was not really fair to you, and I didn't have a good grip on how bad the weather was.
And ranting on about the "snails," yeah noobs are slow, but thats what you get for putting yourself in the position of being on the route with them. My advice is next time your plan is to climb a 5star noob classic at Red Rocks, be the first car at the gate in the morning. That's what my wife and I do and it has worked in our favor. Personally I don't think that advising beginners to do things like simo-climb or rappel when they can barely manage the traditional method is really appropriate. The advice of bringing clothing for any conditions is probably the wisest in there, having even a windbreaker would have made a huge difference for them.
Anyway, I'm glad everyone is ok.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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I remember Lambone standing in the meadows watching The Japaneses dieing on El Cap.
I didn't see him running to the top to save them.
Is this fair? He offered to go to the top, but your crew didn't take him up on it.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=43362&msg=43558#msg43558
I wanted to do more, but it was really henious out, even on the ground, we were freezing standing in the meadow under a tarp. About all I could do was keep some of the YOSAR guys company and fetch hot coffee. It was a terrible feeling. I volounteered to help cary loads to the top, but they seemed to have it covered and wern't really looking for help.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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There wasn't really anything I could do to help those guys in that situation, except for maybe humping in loads from the road above. But i didn't have the gear to be wallowing in three feet of snow...I didn't even have a real pair of boots with me....we were there to climb walls in the sun. That was a real upsetting event for everyone and it still makes my gut tie up in a knot thinking about it.
I posted some inappropriate stuff at the time about YOSAR, and in hindsight regret doing that, and that's what Werner is hinting at...I don't blame him. Goes to show things you say on the Taco may show up years later to haunt you.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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I don't know this area, and the only rescues I have ever done were in the water, so I ask this hesitantly, and not to hack on anyone.
Wouldn't it have been decent for someone to take a bullhorn out there and let them know that help would be coming? Maybe Not right away, but eventually. I just wonder how they felt when no one responded to their calls for help. Or did the OP communicate with them? He doesn't say. I think that it might help me to at least know that someone is aware that you need help.
Just asking.
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harihari
Trad climber
Squampton
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2011 - 06:56pm PT
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We yelled that we were calling 911. Yes, somebody could have gone out there...but again, SAR has not said what took them. A guy came the next day and said that SAR had evacked the climbers in the AM. Dunno if they (SAR) were out there in the evening or not. We did not have access to a bullhorn.
Lambone, I probably shoudl have left out the bit about the snail party (they were annoying but they didn't hurt anybody). I usually don't climb under 5.10 in RR cos of the lineups these days, unless I sc hlepp beers with me to make the rap hang-outs fun. I was out with a beginnerish pal that day so we chose a moderate.
It woudl be cool to hear from SAR why they didn't go out there (on the ground) that evening.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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We promised the three gals in our case that someone would be coming for them, and after making calls on the way back into town and finding out no one was available that promise really started eating at me. In the end I went back out, but the conditions, while cold and windy, were dry and so it was a much, much more doable deal than in this case. I was glad I did as from the highway and hike back in I could see them vainly flashing a headlamp on and off occasionally, it was in fact damn cold, and a couple of them were in pretty bad shape when I did finally get to them.
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WBraun
climber
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You can easily second guess just about any situation.
But SAR teams are just that "Teams"
There might be a couple of hotshots on any team that can pull off some heroics but that's not what SAR stands for.
It's Team effort. The hotshots still require the support from the rest of the organization.
The team leader or incident commander is responsible for everyone. If anyone on the team gets in trouble during an incident the whole thing gets compromised. If you get yourself in a predicament and need help then it's your ass on the line.
Sar does not want to put their asses on the line unless the odds are 100% in their favor.
If you die before they get there that's the way it goes. Sar does not have the consciousness of unnecessary heroics where it will compromise their own safety.
That's just the way they operate.
Some Sar teams are are much better then others in their particular environments.
You'd have to ask the SAR team from Las Vegas what their particular reasons for their responses were to make a judgement.
Most likely they did not have expertise to pull anything off in that weather.
You can't depend on SAR. SAR is only a last resort.
Then ..... you are at their mercy for whatever they can provide.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Nice post radical...I like your perspective.
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Dolomite
climber
Anchorage
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This thread seems to have righted its way back to civility and common sense. Good work--doesn't happen often here. Glad they made it out okay.
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