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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Dec 19, 2010 - 09:11pm PT
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Like DA, ER collets are readily available from all of the usual suspects... Enco, McMaster, MSC, Travers, etc.
Enco part #891-7169 looks like a good option as well... Stubby 200 series DA with a 5/8" diameter shank. A bit pricier at $83 tho.
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Luke Malatesta
Big Wall climber
Moab UT
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 19, 2010 - 09:17pm PT
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Minerals,
The ER16 collets seem to be easier to find than the 200 DA collets nowadays.
As far as the locknut on an ER based drill, it could be long as need be. I mean you could basicially go and make an ER collet drill with an almost identical holder, just would need to change the collet bore to accept ER collets instead of 200 DA ones.
The problem with this would be having to come up with making new CAD drawings, and an entirely new locknut. (the ER Collets have a groove for a retaining ring) and obviously a different shape.
This could take a while but could be done.
I propose that the Hurricanes (D5 Drill) be the one to go with as it is all set up and ready to go.
As far as the grips go, I want to say it was the bar side, not throttle, for the mini grips. I am pretty sure they came from parts unlimited. I got them in a twopack when I worked @ the Yamaha Shop. If we decide to go with those, I will let you know...Your offer would be a huge help. Also thought about contacting the Manuf. of the grips to see if I could buy 250 bar grips bythemselves.
Luke
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Dec 19, 2010 - 09:27pm PT
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Edit: Eric what are your thoughts on heat treatment?
So if that was the base price par the collet holder and lock nut, you would still need to add grips, 2 swages, 3/32" cable, PVC tube, Collet, grip glue, Hardened insert, heat treatment and time.
Just seeing howtotal cost would compare to a hurricane.
Let's see... ER16 collets from Maritool are $13.55 each (neither Travers nor Enco sell ER16 individually), stubby ER16 SS chuck with nut from Enco was $58 (might be cheaper direct from Champion Ind.), still looking for a hardened 7/16-20 LH bolt (to use as the insert to hammer on) but that can't be more than a couple bucks. So let's call that $75 plus whatever you have in the grip, cable, tube, swages and time. Should be able to be under $100 pretty easy since there's not really any work to it other than grinding a slot for the cable and a bit of assembly (no additional heat treatment required if you use a hardened bolt for the end). Oh, and of course these numbers might go down a good bit in quantity... these were catalog prices.
And actually, you can even skip grinding the slot if you simply put a tag hole washer under the bolt before loctiting it in place (cable then goes through the washer). Even easier! :-)
EDIT- Or easier yet, skip the cable too and simply put a loop of 3 or 4mm cord through the hole in the washer. Not as robust, but field replaceable with less chance of degloving your hand should you fall and the drill doesn't come with you.
Having a bit of trouble on the bolt though... Only place I can find 7/16-20LH is wheel studs for certain GM cars/trucks. Can't imagine they'd be more than Grade 5, so you may have to make them.
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Luke Malatesta
Big Wall climber
Moab UT
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 19, 2010 - 10:02pm PT
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Super cool Aric.
I could not remember what the cost on everything was...Figured it was fresh in your mind.
Not that much of a differance in costs, by the time you add all of the above and a wrench set.
Thanks
Luke
Aric,
You could also cut those threads on a lathe I bet
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Dec 19, 2010 - 10:05pm PT
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No prob, Luke. BTW, add $10 to that for the same setup but using 200 series DA.
Edit- yup, cutting 7/16-20LH is no big deal. If you can't tell, my preference is to buy off the shelf and retask/modify rather than male from scratch since it's a big time saver for one-offs.
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nicolamartinez
Big Wall climber
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Dec 19, 2010 - 10:19pm PT
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I'd buy one for sure... Nice job putting it together. Peace. N
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 20, 2010 - 12:03am PT
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Aric, that ER16 design sounds cool too. If you decide to make up a prototype or two, I might be interested in one, if that’s possible. Thanks for all the info!
“I propose that the Hurricanes (D5 Drill) be the one to go with as it is all set up and ready to go.”
Luke, that sounds good to me!!!
Contacting the manufacturer directly for the grips might be your best bet, but if that doesn’t work out, I’m happy to see what I can do if it will help.
Moto grips are available in different rubber compounds, some more sticky and softer, some harder and more durable. If moto riders had to ride with grips like the one that was standard on the Hurricane, they’d be cursing and would throw the things in the garbage immediately. The Hurricane grip is made of a much harder compound, which is more durable and resistant to missed hammer strikes, and offers more protection to your hand. The grip on the Pika drill seems more like a softer moto grip, from what I remember.
The groove for the cable wrist-loop will be turned on a lathe, like the originals, yes?
I think it is important that the cable loop spin freely on the drill holder. If the cable binds on the groove in the holder or on the grip, then the wrist-loop hangs up and it messes with your drilling. Most annoying! Speed drilling requires a free-floating wrist-loop or leash system that doesn’t interfere with twisting the drill. Some climbers prefer a leash to a wrist-loop. Maybe two different cable attachments could be made – one with a wrist-loop and one with a short cable connection (maybe a tiny loop with PVC) to accommodate a leash attachment system. It might be a hassle, but maybe pre-orders could be made for a leash-type setup as well.
This also brings up the subject of glue. Of my three Hurricanes in use, two, or all three of them have a different type of glue holding the grip to the metal drill holder. This is my one complaint about the drill – the grips don’t stick to where they are supposed to be stuck! With the drill holder pictured below (25/64” HSS), the grip moves up over time and interferes with the cable loop. It requires some effort and some heat to get the grip back to where it belongs. A little time in the summer sun on some pavement before effort is applied usually works best.
As you can see on this drill, the plated copper sleeve on the cable has been wearing against the grip, forming the copper-colored ring. The wrist-loop hangs up and the grip is too close to the cable connection. Time to move it back again. The grip moves up because I pull back slightly on the drill while turning it, in order to provide clearance between the drill and the drilling surface (rock) between hammer strikes. This clearance helps to prevent binding of a HSS bit at greater hole depth, and as has been mentioned in previous drilling information, it also produces a pneumatic effect that helps to blow rock dust and particles out of the hole (yup, there are chunks/sand-sized grains as well as rock dust when hand drilling). Keeping the hole clear of excessive rock dust also prevents HSS bits from binding. Continual use of a blow tube is necessary, especially when drilling 3/8" holes.
The glue on another drill is more like a hard epoxy, and once the grip broke free of the glue, it pretty much relies on the tight fit of the grip to stay put, which doesn’t really work. The grip sits against the collet nut on my SDS drill, probably because those bits need all the forward help they can get (heh…). It’s the one on the right in the photo below. To change or tighten the bit, I have to grab the drill holder and slam the striking surface end into a rock several times to move the grip back such that the wrench flats are exposed.
My three Hurricanes that are in use – the 17/64” drill on the left has appropriate cable/grip clearance. The two on the right need grip-glue help. PVC tubing is nice on the center length of cable as well; cable and arm hairs are not always a fun combination. As a personal preference, I use 5” of PVC for the middle section of cable and 11” of PVC for the wrist-loop. Production models should probably accommodate the norm. The Hurricanes were set up to accommodate warm gloves; a little tape can be used to tighten up those larger wrist-loops for any given hand size.
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Luke Malatesta
Big Wall climber
Moab UT
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 20, 2010 - 01:51am PT
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Minerals,
The holder will be turned on a lathe to produce the groove. I like the leash idea as an option as well. Could even bartack a small sling on the loop. Good ideas.
The grip issue is going to come down to what available. I am having a hard time sourcing some but am going to look into it more. It is the last piece of the puzzle.
As far as the glue goes I hear ya. I am not sure what John used, maybe he can comment on this.
I was thinking Locktite Hysol which is a 2 part epoxy or maybe even something for MX bikes. There are a ton of different compounds out there.
It depends on the grips still and what there ID end up being.
Thanks a bunch for the pics and comments.
Luke
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campy
climber
California
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Dec 20, 2010 - 12:39pm PT
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Renthal grip glue sold in motorcycle stores, works well. Renthal grips are very good also. Jetski grips come two non-throttle side to a package.
John
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Darryl Cramer
Social climber
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Dec 20, 2010 - 01:50pm PT
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All this collet chat has me wondering: Can anyone place a link to the type of collet you would use in a Hurricane Drill as currently designed? I have one but have no idea where to get collets for different size bits.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 20, 2010 - 01:51pm PT
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Your point RURPS???
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 20, 2010 - 02:15pm PT
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HAPPY NOW TROLL?!?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Dec 20, 2010 - 02:17pm PT
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We are all talking about 2" usable, 4" overall length 3/8" SDS - not 6" overall...
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 20, 2010 - 02:19pm PT
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Sorry, but I never even consider drilling a 2" deep hole, honestly.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 20, 2010 - 02:23pm PT
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Time to check ISP's...
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 20, 2010 - 02:27pm PT
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I’d rather check the fridge for an IPA...
You DO know what SDS stands for, right?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 20, 2010 - 02:29pm PT
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Do tell...
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Dec 20, 2010 - 02:33pm PT
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Sure Drills Slow !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!665
Yuck!!!
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