The Thimble - John Gill

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klk

Trad climber

cali

Dec 10, 2010 - 11:50am PT

Personally, what always struck me about Gill's climbing was the space between him and the rock.

Yes, that's one of the things that strikes me, too. Lots of really clean straight lines, which was on eof the aesthetics you always sought in a good gymnastics routine.

On really overhanging things, it's also one possible result from initiating movement primarily from the shoulders and arms, rather than legs. Any of the straight arm mounts on bars, rings or p-bars move the body through a very different plane than what you would get from a simple pull-up.

I used to spend a lot of time trying to work out bouldering equivalents to kips and butterfly mounts.

klk

Trad climber

cali

Dec 10, 2010 - 11:59am PT

the matter of Gill's particular style is interesting, but it's hard to imagine it was much in evidence on the crux of the Thimble.

No one on Greg Collins' possible ascent?

That's one of the things I meant by saying that The Thimble was so influential in part because it was conceptually more accessible to period rock climbers-- it was more like the easier things people were doing with ropes or even as solos than were, say, Gill's eliminates on Red Cross Rock.

Re Collins-- I don't know about it. Part of the cool thing about the period was that folks didn't video, tweet, or scorecard ascents. (If there'd been an ST in 1962, it'd be filled with threads saying that Gill was a liar, why wasn't there video, etc.) I heard about ascents through grapevine and rumor. We will never know for certain if or how many repeats the thing got.

One example: Early 1980s I was top-roping a 5.12 route in Icicle Creek (about the size and probably difficulty as the Thimble), and feeling pretty good about getting it with a bit of work, when some random from the East Coast shows up and asks for a belay. He was on a West Coast road trip-- he tied in and floated the thing (maybe 12b/c) first try. That was still unusual then. We got to talking and he said that he had done The Thimble earlier in that road trip. Given what I could see of his ability, I had no reason to doubt him.

No-one you'd recognize from the magazines. Bouldering wasn't high profile then. Nice guy, low-key. Can't remember his name. Who knows? Part of the mystery of the route.

TomCochrane

Trad climber

Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay

Dec 10, 2010 - 01:07pm PT

Thanks Jogill, it's fun to connect the dots!

I think the route Fitschen and I worked on was #17. So I guess we can judge that 5.10C was beyond me in 1961, but accessible to Kor. At the time I knew very little about what people were doing there other than comments that you guys had fingerprints it.

In 1961 I had not yet been to Yosemite, Tahquitz or Stony Point. (I also had not yet met Kamps or Higgins.) Blacktail Butte was similar to some small walls that I was practicing on solo in Idaho, in the realm of 5.8-5.9. So Blacktail Butte stood out as my measuring stick and inspiration for what masters of the sport were able to accomplish at the time.

I have memories of you on the Jenny Lake boulders that I sincerely wish could be shared, if we only had a technology for the digital capture of visual memories. Your style on the rocks was truly artistic.

Perhaps we could do virtual reality visualizations of you aided by Pat's movies and a motion capture suit. We can imagine some of the idea from the movie 'Avatar' (where my nephew was an assistant to James Cameron).

One recall in particular was watching you complete a route on Red Cross Boulder by smoothly one-hand mantling a small scooped handhold near the top, flopping once like a fish onto the top, up into something like an inverted front lever, then slipping a foot up next to your right hand, and gracefully standing on that foot into position to walk away.

Edit: klk, could that have been Kevin Bein from the Gunks?

klk

Trad climber

cali

Dec 10, 2010 - 01:30pm PT

klk, could that have been Kevin Bein from the Gunks?

no, it wasn't kevin or any of the folks i met (then or later) from the gunks. skinny, blondish, beard, really low-key dude. can't recall his name.

jstan

climber

Dec 10, 2010 - 01:50pm PT

Early eighties is out of my time frame. The only skinny, blondish, and low keyed climber that comes to mind is John Bragg. I did not meet many of the Boston people, people from Ontario, New River people or others from the SE. Al Rubin should have a candidate shortly.

jogill

climber

Colorado

Dec 10, 2010 - 02:48pm PT

. . . would appear to be skimming the surface with finger and toe-tips . . .

A perceptive observation about the game I was attempting to play, Rich. Minimal contact, whether climbing the rope in the gym or moving up the rock. And I recall you doing exceedingly well at that game when we bouldered together!

Chris Jones (the powerful American boulderer, not the wandering Brit) and I used to talk about this aspect of style, which approached its zenith on no-hands problems, like Falling Ant Slab at Jenny Lake - just the tips of the toes. Bob Kamps and I enjoyed doing these problems, spending hours making a five foot passage. Miss that guy . . . one of America's greatest pioneer rock climbers.

Dynamic technique also improved the general game in this regard. Chris even took this a step further, doing dynamic problems with one arm only . . . no other part of the body. I did one arm problems occasionally (with feet!), but Chris took the game to a spectacular level.

TomCochrane

Trad climber

Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay

Dec 11, 2010 - 02:04am PT

I just had a chance to ask Layton Kor about Blacktail Butte. He was surprised to hear that there was a guide to multiple routes on "that little thing!"

Layton's understanding was that there was only one route at the time. He thought John Gill did it first, followed by Royal; and then he did the third ascent. Layton said it was the hardest thing that he had climbed back in the early 1960's time period. He did a straight up line with a top rope and didn't think it was anything he would consider leading. He thought it was like a tall stack of boulder problems and his hands were burning by the time he topped out. He thinks 5.10c is about right for it in retrospect.

Layton mentioned that around the same time period he had been going up above Boulder Colorado into Boulder Canyon and working some top rope problems that were pushing his limits. But none of those problems were as hard as Blacktail Butte.

mike m

Trad climber

black hills

Dec 11, 2010 - 02:08am PT

Whats harder The Thimble as done by Gill or Midnight Lightning?

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Dec 11, 2010 - 02:36am PT

Midnight Lightning is V8, the Thimble is V4. Gill did a V8 on Red Cross Rock at Jenny Lake in 1958, three years before the Thimble ascent. I think it was about twenty years until that standard was reached again.

ß Î Ø T Ç H

climber

Dec 11, 2010 - 03:55am PT

"Minimal contact" . . . I'm digesting this morsel as we speak.

Evel

Trad climber

Nedsterdam CO

Dec 11, 2010 - 02:31pm PT

Randisi mentioned a fellow with a cat on a leash.

Pretty sure that would be Kris Kline of Southern Rock fame.

Don't know if he sent the problem or not, but wouldn't doubt it as Kris is one bad man on the stone.

jstan

climber

Dec 11, 2010 - 02:45pm PT

There are million different forms of climbing. A fact made very clear by this discussion.

That was made very clear to me once on Goldstone's boulder tour when someone did a lunge and Rich complained as if into his cup of coffee,

"Doesn't anyone climb anymore?"

Based upon the belief this is somehow not true

we get all involved with so much that is nonsensical.

tom woods

Gym climber

Bishop, CA

Dec 11, 2010 - 07:04pm PT

This thread is getting me interested in the less famous history of Gill soloing stuff.

The boulder problems hold their own to this day, but it sounds like, there is more to this already fun story.

TomCochrane

Trad climber

Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay

Dec 11, 2010 - 07:17pm PT

so i have the impression from jogill bitd that he did 'solo exploration' of a number of aretes on the south side of disappointment peak in the tetons (?)

i think he has been reticent about it because you had to pass these big park service signs that said NO SOLO CLIMBING!

this didn't slow me down, and i soloed irene's arete and the direct exum ridge and others, inspired by talking to him

but i never heard john confess or elaborate although he did draw me a little diagram of the various aretes and dropped some hints. (he did tell me about doing surprise arete with chouinard (?))

John??

tarek

climber

berkeley

Dec 11, 2010 - 08:08pm PT

interesting how the move shown in the middle photo posted by rgold, wherein Gill's feet have cut loose, is similar to the move to the lightning bolt hold on ML. The move shown is clearly longer than the move on ML, though. To me, ML seems like a Gill problem.

funkazzista

climber

Italy

Sep 19, 2011 - 06:45pm PT

It was 50 years ago.
What an amazing accomplishment!

Perhaps jogill remembers the exact date of the FA?
Or the season?

Russ S.

climber

Seattle, WA

Sep 19, 2011 - 08:41pm PT

As far as pre-Verm ascents, I remember hearing about some guy with a cat on a leash.

Great thread on the Thimble and history. And just may have answered one of my personal mysteries... Around '78-79 a group of us were attempting a bouldering problem in JT without truly committing to the moves. We noticed a couple, dressed in black walking across the desert toward us. As they got closer we see the guy has a cat on a leash. They walk us and ask if they can give to problem as try. The guy floats it without effort, then boosts his gf(?) up to the start holds and she floats it as well. They then turn around and walk back where they came from.... Their ascent gave us the courage to commit and at least a couple of us climbed the route. Always wondered who they were - like MisterE's story...

jogill

climber

Colorado

Sep 19, 2011 - 10:11pm PT

Thank you for mentioning the Thimble, funkazzista. I wish I were able to give you a blow-by-blow account, but the current thread on the Superpin has exhausted me! I wandered into an ethical area where I had, relatively speaking, but minor experience over a very long climbing career and provoked some criticisms from my old friend RGold and others whose commitments to ethics and style are both profound and admirable.

I’m on surer ground regarding bouldering, but even there my views are hopelessly antiquated. For example, I always considered the Thimble a climb and not a bouldering problem, eschewing risk in the latter. Highball bouldering has added an element of danger to what I thought of as pure and relatively safe rock gymnastics.

When I was just getting started in the early to mid 1950s I made a decision to always look forward and not dwell on the past, so I didn’t have a journal, although I did have a collection of photos in an album to remind me of the boulder problems I had done.

As I approach 75 my memory, never top drawer, gets a bit muddled. For instance, I remember the delightful bouldering session I had with Pete Cleveland as we tried to get up the Outlet Boulder at Sylvan Lake. But I don’t recall the year (mid 60s ?) or the date (probably in the summer, for the weather was mild). Pete was an extraordinarily determined and capable bouldering companion. I do remember that.

I can recall doing a longer climb, a FA with Bob Kamps where we climbed a tree next to the rock and put a sling in the branches to get a belay and avoid a bolt placement. I’m not sure where this was (in the Needles). I also remember belaying a well-known climber as he examined a proposed route using a similar protective measure – I’m not going to say who that was, because the ethics have evolved in the area to the point where I doubt such shenanigans would be condoned! Even ex post facto. Besides I don’t remember where in the Needles this occurred.

As a retired mathematician I still putter around, attempting to produce new theory, much like an older climber trying for a FA. But there have been occasions (thankfully rare) where I spent several hours working up some original result, then getting the feeling it was just a tad familiar, then going through my published papers and finding I did it 20 – 30 years ago!

As I said a moment ago, the Thimble was always a climbing and not a bouldering challenge. 50 – 55 years ago I was very interested – even enraptured – with what I considered the end game in our sport: free solo exploration (of course, the expression “free solo” didn’t exist then). I had done much milder versions of this sort of thing in the Tetons in the mid to late 1950s (e.g., several paths I discovered on the south buttress of Storm Point and never spoke of, partly because of the ban on soloing in the park) and a little in the Needles. The Thimble was a kind of ultimate test to see how far I was willing to go in this direction. It took several trips to work out the physical aspects of the climb as well as the mental ones.

I reached my limit on the Thimble, then put this sort of activity behind me . . . way too dangerous for a person who was actually a very conservative rock climber. Chouinard, Kamps, Rearick, Robbins, and, later, Ament, Goldstone, Cleveland, etc. were bolder climbers on their longer climbs, and I was happy to see them receive the recognition they deserved. Little did I suspect that others would view the Thimble as a “highball” bouldering problem – times do change.

Well, it’s been a long day, and I see on the John Gill entry on Wikipedia that I am deceased. So, from the other side - as Houdini would say – greetings, fellow climbers. Surprisingly, things seem much the same over here . . . weird.