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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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You guys are all too avant-garde for me--I still have a few Army Aluminum 'biners made for the Second Mountain Division/Mountain and
Cold Weather Command.
Yeah, and I have a lot of older Chouinard 'biners too.
Re cleaning up corroded and crapped up metal: use a ammo reloader's vibratory case cleaner with corncob polishing media. Run it overnight and all the corrosion will be gone leaving bright clean metal behind. No worry about chewing off the raised lettering.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Steve,
> The biner attributed to Scared Silly in post #40 is Chouinard Alcoa Version I with no CHOUINARD raised lettering.
Actually that biner does have CHOUINARD raised lettering. (OK, somewhat vague letters, but definitely letters).
I haven't seen any examples which are unworn and don't have CHOUINARD.
(They might exist; I just don't know). And it looks like it can get worn off more easily than the ALCOA, so it may be a source of confusion.
For example, in groundup's detailed photos, ALCOA is very sharp, and CHOUINARD is quite faint.
> I think that Alcoa Version II is the Dick Erb and Charlie D shape that is still a pronounced D shape with tiny CHOUINARD lettering.
Does this mean smaller or larger lettering than the Version I?
I don't think it is possible to tell from these photos about a "pronounced D shape", because the appearance of the shape will vary depending on the camera angle.
And a different shape implies a different drop forging die, which is very expensive. Plus the 820 might be changed on a new die?
> Alcoa Version III is moving toward a modified D and has CHOUINARD lettering. Marty seems to have one of these. Still design #1.
Same comment on vague shape. Could be true, but I don't see solid evidence for it.
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Patrick Oliver
Boulder climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Hi, Clint. Hope you are well, my friend. I'm not sure about your last
sentence. Do you refer to the evidence for the earliest shape I described? Or something else? I'm gettin senile and don't always follow the meaning or what people are referring to.
Best to you,
Pat
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Dear Pat,
When I said "vague shape" I was referring to Steve's descriptions of the photos in my post #40, and trying to classify them by differences in shape.
Some do look slightly different to me, but I think it could just be different camera angles.
I can definitely see how 2 biners in the narrow end of the photo above could have that "biner shift" problem.
Do you recall an earlier shape much more angular than the one above?
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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1965-1967 catalog states "Each year the original has undergone changes in design and manufacturing with new springs, rivets and stronger gates, resulting in smoother action and increase in strength of almost 1000 lbs."
It seems that from 1957/58 to 1967 the carabiner body stayed the same?
The guts however changed.
1968 - 1970 catalog states: "In 1968 after ten years of production, the Chouinard Carabiner was completely revised and a new model has resulted. It has the following characteristics: higher strength with reduced weight, smoother corners to enhance handling and reduce etrier shift, easier assembly into carabiner brakes, and comfortable racking of three standard angles. The gate opens under body weight, and two etrier carabiners and then a 11mm rope can be clipped in."
Rock on!
Marty
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Does your left hand biner say CHOUINARD opposite side from ALCOA or something else? Looks like it does. Version II.
The biner attributed to Scared Silly in post #40 is Chouinard Alcoa Version I with no CHOUINARD raised lettering.
Yeah, Steve, both do (look to be the same vintage biner to me).
Scared Silly's has Chouinard on it, just, well worn. I've fondled it in person. The biner.
All the Chouinard Alcoa's look the same to me. Variations look slight enough to just be differences in finishing?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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So does seeing these beat-up ancient biners remind you, just a little, of how life felt when they were shiny?
The oldest Chouinard in my collection seems to be this one, also seen earlier in Clint's post. I acquired it in
1968 from Bill Thompson (BT), who likely had purchased it directly from Chouinard's shop in Ventura some years before.
Despite all the scratches you can make out "820" and "Alcoa" in raised letters on one side.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Even with a magnifying glass, there's no evidence of "Chouinard" on the other side.
Doesn't look to me like it was there.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Larry, I'm seein' letters...
The Alcoa biners I've seen that are especially worn always have a very well raised "Alcoa", and, a sometimes really difficult to see "Chouinard".
Maybe someone with better skills can "see" it?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Maybe, Brian, but with a glass I couldn't make out any sign of "Chouinard."
Those marks you circled are indentations, like the other scratches, rather than raised letters.
You can tell because they have paint in them instead of around.
On the other side, "ALCOA" was more apparent by glass than it is in the photo; the lettering on that and "820" is still raised.
However, this biner has clanged its way up a fair number of walls.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2010 - 02:48pm PT
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Chiloe: Re your So does seeing these beat-up ancient biners remind you, just a little, of how life felt when they were shiny?
I liked that: it made me smile! It appears you and those old biners are still functioning, despite the wear.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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1965-1967 catalog states "Each year the original has undergone changes in design and manufacturing with new springs, rivets and stronger gates, resulting in smoother action and increase in strength of almost 1000 lbs."
It seems that from 1957/58 to 1967 the carabiner body stayed the same?
The guts however changed.
Thanks, Marty - that answers a question I've wondered a lot about!
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dogtown
Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Do you have any Frost stuff? (Old school)? Hell I do. What some?
DT.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Talk about chasing the ghosts of long ago! LOL
Chiloe- Very cool biner! Looks clean to me!
If another Version I shows up to back up Chiloe's then Tom's memory is correct. Otherwise, the task of typifying the Version II & III raised lettering will have to wait until somebody can either measure and report or compare directly should somebody have both generations.
The body shape changed subtly, eventually becoming the Modified D. Cardboard cutouts of the interior clearspace would be a great way to tell apples from apples!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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> If another Version I shows up to back up Chiloe's ...
Not if it is another worn biner like Chiloe's.
If a biner with very little wear shows up that has no CHOUINARD,
that would be some evidence for a Version I without "CHOUINARD" lettering.
Hopefully this is what you meant.
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dogtown
Trad climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Cool, collation.
I have a bunch of old stuff from GPIW. A lot of which was given to me at no cost, by those who made it or someone leaving it behind on a few routes. I also have a bunch of early model friends one of which I think is a proto type (no markings) also found. Hell, for year my rack was made up of things like this. Too poor to buy anything.
DT.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Assuming that any lettering was punched, however faintly, it might be possible to 'see' it using x-ray crystallography, or something along those lines. Perhaps not cheap, though.
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groundup
Trad climber
hard sayin' not knowin'
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Has anyone thought that some of the differences mentioned above (tighter gate, slightly more D shaped, and some others) could have just been due to different dies used for the same models and types or variations caused during final fit and assembly?
Seems like we could almost endlessly pick out differences. I just looked at an old sling full of ovals I have from the early 90's and I notice slight variations in two or three from the same era... just asking what the guys with the super keen eyes think.
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