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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2010 - 06:59pm PT
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This is not the native Rocky Mountain Grey Wolf that was "reintroduced," but a Canadian species. Check out the earlier posts by Rokjox, and he has the data to back this up. Are you extraordinarily dense, or simply unable to read and comprehend?
The earlier screed about wolves being shy and reclusive is absolute fantasy writing. Written by some dewy-eyed wnd wishful thinking dreamer? Is a pack of feral dogs shy of humans? Multiply that by 2 orders of magnitude and you have Canadian pack wolves.
Added in edit: Nope; never did, nor ever would vote for Dubya.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Nov 14, 2010 - 07:14pm PT
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Canis Lupus Occidentalis is the subspecies transplanted from western Canada to Yellowstone and into Idaho wilderness areas.Canis Lupus Baileyi is the smaller subspecies native to Rocky Moountain States.
Nowak, Ronald M. 1995. Another look at wolf taxonomy. In Carbyn, L. N., S. H. Fritts, and D. R. Seip. Ecology and Conservation of Wolves in a Changing World.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2010 - 07:30pm PT
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Re: Wild turkeys. See the pix below.
I feed them up by my house in the driveway.
I really enjoy feeding these birds; costs me about $8-10 a day.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 14, 2010 - 07:45pm PT
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The lack of natural predators and abundance of the goodie s(think of it as a smorgasboard) you grow on your farm, are why Bug's Buddies give you such a hard time, Lois. The system is out of balance (like it is everywhere). More large predators would be good for your plants.
Likewise, in general in the west and midwest there are too many wild hoofers. There are 'supposed' to be more large predators. Ask anybody who has hi say a deer, or an Elk with their car. I've hit both (one of the reasons I drive a Saab, one design parameter is that the animals fly over the top when hit at speed, designed with Swedish Moose in mind i'm told).
As for protecting whatever you want on your own land. That's fine as far as it goes. But in the west, the problem is generally the reverse; it takes a lot more land to feed a cow in the more arid lands of out here then it does in places with more rainfall. Most cattle are raised on public lands, and we all pay for this cow welfare. This is why cows run wild like the vermin they are, all over Vedauwoo, among other places.
Then cowherds welfare 'entitlees' want to control the predators on public lands they graze cattle on. Not to maintain ecological balance but to raise more cows, "wild" meat and trophies, than the land can realistically support.
On our dime!
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2010 - 08:19pm PT
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To address several issues in one post!
Lois-
I simply put out the stuff called Kountry Buffet that I buy at the feed store. It's laced with molasses, so the birds smell it first, then they develop a taste for it. It's a ground and pelletized oats and barley feed, with some added whole corn. I dunno how it all started, but I've been feeding them during cold weather when there's snow on the ground for 5-7 years? They hang around all year, but aren't always seen; they also are my moving bug control system and eat huge quantities of grasshoppers from the hay meadows, as well as eating small rodents like mice. They also keep snakes under control. After a while, they got used to me and the feeding them became a real pleasure. I can get close enough that they bump my legs while I feed.The older hens know me and aren't afraid; the young of the year get the message quickly and follow the older birds. They are dam smart!
Jaybro-
I have an operation that has NO public land (Forest Service Grazing nor BLM Grazing leases). I own and pay $$$ in property taxes on over 1,600 acres of very prime grazing land. All DEEDED acreage!
Lois-
The elk are "transients" and only come down from the mountains in snowy and cold weather. I have year-round deer and pronghorn antelope on the place.
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LED
Social climber
the great beyond
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Nov 14, 2010 - 08:39pm PT
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 14, 2010 - 08:43pm PT
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That's why I said "most", Broke. I wan't talking about your situation, just thought it relevent to mention a problem that is a lot bigger deal than whether there are wolves.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Nov 14, 2010 - 09:14pm PT
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You’re correct Mr. Crowley Canis Lupus Baileyi is the Mexican Wolf. Canis Lupus Nubilus is the subspecies native to Idaho, Wyo. and sw Montana.
(From a post made on a previous thread; the Hall and Novak subspecies map together)
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 14, 2010 - 09:20pm PT
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Who cares about the darn wolves - talk about flogging a dead horse. What I want to know is if Jennie is Little Red Riding Hood?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 14, 2010 - 09:20pm PT
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Who cares about the darn wolves - talk about flogging a dead horse. What I want to know is if Jennie is Little Red Riding Hood?
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Nov 14, 2010 - 09:38pm PT
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Okay, Okay, Anders! You outed me...
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 14, 2010 - 09:41pm PT
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Hey, Diode-
What's with the lady Gaga pictures?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 14, 2010 - 10:14pm PT
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Fascinating read. This and the threads on the wild mustang problem out West really do seem like 19th century debates all over again.
There is also truth to what Jay says. I have always noted that people in the Rocky Mountain West hate the federal government at the same time they have their hands out for more subsidies. On the other hand, if the cattlemen, sheep owners and miners didn't pay to use those public lands, everyone's taxes would go up.
So here's the good news. At least with killer wolf packs roaming Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming, the forests are not infested with illegal immigrants growing pot and polluting the streams with their pesticides as in California.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 14, 2010 - 10:17pm PT
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Plus it slows down all those icebacks from Canada.
My mother was a childrens' librarian and a big Red Riding Hood fan. She had a big collection of RRH books, costumes, and stuff, which we donated to UBC's special collections.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 14, 2010 - 11:46pm PT
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No one understood ecology in the 19th century. They decimated the buffalo herds for profit but also because they could not carve up the grass lands into private farm land until the buffalo were gone. Now it turns out, much of the land in the Dakotas and Mountain states can not support farming because the climate is too dry and the aquifers are being drained. Farms in the Dakotas especially, are being abandoned at a rapid rate.
Some have even suggested the federal government buy up or reclaim the old homestead land and run buffalo on it again, with the Native Americans of the region as the stewards. The mustangs from Nevada could be trucked from the government feed lots there to the Dakotas as well, preferably after sterilizing most of them.
Meanwhile, livestock grazers eke out a living, often with the use of public land. If the public at some point decides to close that land, turn it over to the wolves and California tourists, and put all the former ranchers on welfare, that could happen. But really, is that the best use of the land? Or of human energy?
I must admit to being biased since all of my ancestors left the East Coast and pioneered the West working a couple of states westward each generation. I also have ancestors who pioneered the long horn cattle drives from south Texas to Dodge City. And I own mountain property in Colorado thanks to patented mining claims. I've heard these issues debated all my life.
The one thing that unites all the various interests in the mountain states however, as far as I can tell, is their contempt for the way the wolves were imposed on them by the federal government and sentimental folks who live in urban areas who probably can't tell a cow from an elk. Frankly, it wouldn't surprise me if some livestock owners negotiated to give up their grazing rights on public land in return for getting rid of the wolves just so they and their domestic animals could live on their own private land again without being harassed.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 14, 2010 - 11:49pm PT
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19th century Morees all over again!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 14, 2010 - 11:54pm PT
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So what's your 21st century solution then?
Driving livestock owners out of business and turning public land back to the wildlife exclusively, still isn't going to restore the pre-Columbian world.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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Nov 15, 2010 - 12:03am PT
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Jan: I think your last post is right on!
The one thing that unites all the various interests in the mountain states however, as far as I can tell, is their contempt for the way the wolves were imposed on them by the federal government and sentimental folks who live in urban areas who probably can't tell a cow from an elk. Frankly, it wouldn't surprise me if some livestock owners negotiated to give up their grazing rights on public land in return for getting rid of the wolves again just so they and their domestic animals could live on their own private land again without being harassed.
However I suspect that most ranchers that have huge allotments of public land for grazing will: give up their grazing rights "when the govenment pries their dead fingers off the last cheap allotment"
You have to remember that every Rockies politician has to be photographed on a horse, in cowboy dress. That action, and opposing gun control: means there is a good chance of being elected.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2010 - 12:07am PT
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Jaybro-
I'll bet you wouldn't turn down a big, sizzzlin' t-bone, either. That could be priced off the event horizon by running the farmers and ranchers out of business, as this wolf issue threatens to do...
I know you are a UWyo grad, and probably understand the issue and are being a "devil's advocate." :D
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 15, 2010 - 12:14am PT
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Fritz-
Several election cycles ago, a gal by the name of Kathy Karpan ran for Governer in Wyoming as a Democrat. She wasn't very "outdoorsey," but she dressed up in some borrowed hunting clothes, complete with "Elmer Fudd" hat, and was then photographed with a borrowed rifle as "hunting" in the City Park in Cheyenne! She became a complete laughing stock among ranchers, and outdoorsmen in general.
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