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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Sep 10, 2010 - 11:40pm PT
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Yes, let's blame the teachers. It's always their fault.
Doesn't matter if there are 30 kids in class, some of them
slept on doorsteps the night before and didn't have warm
clothes or breakfast so they could think. . .
Yep, it's always the teachers and the teachers unions at fault.
Uh huh.
You bet. . .
KNOTT!
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Sep 10, 2010 - 11:54pm PT
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Jim let me tell you a true story...
My father was a very successful VP for Asian operations for Bank of America, His prior successful stints included Italy and India. He encouraged us (my bro and me) to pursue college and start out in community colleges. He is pretty loaded and had connections, so it wasn't a money issue. It was a discovery issue. Kinda like public school.
My bro ended up with a B.A. in business admin and, God bless him, aint doin' real well.
I graduated with an A.S. in electronics and decided to get to work because I was super-stoked!! I graduated with A's and B's. I loved it.
I never went back to school. My Dad still says I should when I bring up my regrets for not getting an Engineering degree. But I point out that hardware Eng's are the first to get laid off when they finish their projects.
Everybody needs tech's to fix the broken gear.
Now I'm a manager, but my job is the same. I just have new responsibilities added on.
My bottom line? Do what you love, and with passion. My Dad would prolly agree.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Sep 11, 2010 - 12:19am PT
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If we spend more on education we'll have smarter kids??? Tell me you jest.
That is not what he meant Blue. But when the world was spending more on education, we started spending less. Putting more and more kids into each classroom until teachers were worn out and the best left. Sure some dedicated folks stuck around because they are dedicated, but we still wore them out. Have you ever tried to do a good job when you are exhausted?
Then we started noticing this, so here in California we started trying to reduce class size. But then we ran into a recession and now class size is going back up.
You have to spend money to get a quality education. Those studies that show that private schools give better educations for less fail to take into account that many of those schools buildings and maintenance are underwrite by the churches who support them.
Is this 100 percent true? NO..
Are all public schools great? Absolutely NOT.
But you still have to spend a decent amount of money to get a decent education. That is the point. There is a point of diminishing returns. You can't keep cutting education in the hopes that somehow things will magically get better, just as you can't just throw money at a problem.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Sep 11, 2010 - 12:22am PT
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Well, for all the fuss, I suspect that overall, Americans (and Canadians) are better educated now than they were 50 or 100 years ago, and that's a good thing. Natural resources and an educated, trained workforce are two great advantages to any country in the 21st century.
The reason I say overall is that 50 years ago, an awful lot of people simply got jettisoned or left out of the educational system. Blacks, First Peoples, those with physical and mental disabilities, and so on. 100 years ago, after grade 8, many left or were pushed, to work on the farm or in the mill. 50 years ago, it was grade 10. Now, more tend to make it to some sort of end to high school, however imperfect. Years ago, yes, those who survived the system may have done better, but you have to look at the whole population.
Certainly inner city schools are often bad, there are great inequalities between districts, and sociology is a huge factor. In both the US and Canada, the white middle-class flood to supposedly better private schools is an issue. Plus education = bureaucracy. But it's essential to a nation thriving, and I'm happy to pay taxes to support it, even if the system might be better.
Steve is right to point out that a backbone of the economy is skilled service jobs, not to mention unskilled service industry work, the military, and so on. All also ways to advance for newcomers and those near the bottom of the ladder. But I wonder what he has in mind for his own son's education?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 11, 2010 - 03:09pm PT
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whoa! that was well written!
inspirational even...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 11, 2010 - 03:18pm PT
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I haven't seen this article mentioned yet... the effect a good early school teachers have on the future economic well being of their students:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/28/business/economy/28leonhardt.html
here is the presentation: http://obs.rc.fas.harvard.edu/chetty/STAR_slides.pdf
the consequence of the study indicates that early school teacher salaries, if tied to the economic outcome, should be more like $320,000 per year.
The average elementary school teacher in the US makes about $40,000 per year a factor of 8 below the "worth" of the teacher.
I think that speaks volumes about the US culture valuation of education and teaching.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Sep 11, 2010 - 04:26pm PT
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Do you really think teachers should make 300 grand a year, Ed???
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Sep 11, 2010 - 04:33pm PT
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$300,000/year is small potatoes for those working in 'high' finance.
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jstan
climber
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Sep 11, 2010 - 04:34pm PT
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Pay them that and they will start to think they were elites. That would be worse than having your child never reach their potential.
CEO's and people in the big Wall Street firms are making each of us wealthy so they need to get even more pay than they are getting now.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Sep 11, 2010 - 04:37pm PT
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Uh, in the PRIVATE SECTOR, pay is based on performance and responsibility. Also on a profit basis. A cut of the money.
With teachers, it's different. Totally different scale. Do I have to explain or can you idiots figure out the differences.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Sep 11, 2010 - 04:41pm PT
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As you've concluded that we're idiots, we're quite unable to figure it out for ourselves. :-)
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Sep 11, 2010 - 04:58pm PT
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That's not the case at all, Anders...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 11, 2010 - 06:22pm PT
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did you read the article?
did you read the presentation?
they authors make a cost-benefit analysis on their last slide, their conclusions are that the economic outcome of their students at age 28, for a 20 student class, per year, is roughly $260,000... with a 1 standard deviation increase in teacher quality.
this does not take into account the economic gains related to other factors, such as a reduction in violent crime with increased educational success, the reduction in unwanted children with increased educational success, improved health, etc, etc...
I think that if you substantially improved the teacher salaries you'd get better competition for teacher positions, and if quality of teaching were a criteria for improved salaries, you'd incentivize higher quality teaching.
Sounds pretty capitalistic to me...
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Sep 11, 2010 - 11:37pm PT
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Warbler....makes sense.....the hardcore capitalists want to dumb down the rest of society to keep any competition from threatening their monopolies...rj
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Sep 11, 2010 - 11:42pm PT
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you guys know where i can find a nice girl for $100?
nothing weird,
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 11, 2010 - 11:43pm PT
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Sep 11, 2010 - 11:51pm PT
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I think that if you substantially improved the teacher salaries you'd get better competition for teacher positions, and if quality of teaching were a criteria for improved salaries, you'd incentivize higher quality teaching.
WTF are you talking about?? How much is "enough"??? F*#king-a, Ed, you're smart enough to understand that money doesn't make kids smart. Neither does dumping money into 'schools'.
Geez.......
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Sep 11, 2010 - 11:55pm PT
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Never trust a man who's ass is wider than his shoulders....
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Sep 12, 2010 - 12:09am PT
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Hartouni has a good point...if you want a good carpenter and quality work you have to pay a decent wage...if you just want a cheap price for a home improvement project , chances are you won't get a quality job....in michigan , the state is trying to break the teachers unions and their pay by ranking schools according to their tests scores....teachers salaries have stagnated in the past few years and so have test scores....so maybe hartounis theory makes sense...? rj
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R.B.
Big Wall climber
Land of the Lahar
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Sep 12, 2010 - 12:09am PT
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You may be ignorant, but I know I AM NOT ... so put that in your pipe and smoke it!
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