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Barbarian
Trad climber
The great white north, eh?
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Jul 21, 2010 - 12:38am PT
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You're a good man Dapper Dan! Volunteering to return bootied gear earns extra karma points. Personally, I use karma points to ward off thunderstorms - works pretty well (except for that one time...and that other time)!
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Footloose
Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
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Jul 21, 2010 - 12:42am PT
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I've climbed with Dapper Dan,
he IS a good man. A good man, a
good climber.
Good on ya, Dapper Dan! :)
I like that, too. Use of karma points
to ward off mountain thunderbolts.
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Fuzzywuzzy
climber
suspendedhappynation
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Jul 21, 2010 - 11:43am PT
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Timid - great memory of the standard response from Ferd!!
Classic.
Remember him looking up at the scattered clouds, "Clouds, one day, two days, rain".
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Jul 21, 2010 - 12:21pm PT
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dude just wanted his cams back, and everyone blows up! Good to know it's illegal on ST to climb in threatening weather. i read in the alpinist about some guys that climbed in a storm in the Ruth Gorge. what a$$holes, huh? climbing in a storm like that. they got lucky and lived, but they should be tossed in jail. who do they think they are, mountaineers?
Cragman's right. if yer climbing with 20% chance of rain, then F#ck you. yer endangering hypothetical rescuers. Also true if you elect to climb above gear, climb on snow, go above 6,000 feet, or climb 5th class rock at all for that matter. but honnold is cool, since he doesn't fall.
Cragman, what's yer take on Copp and Dash? big jerks for standing under an avalanche, huh? endangered rescuers and everything. Why don't you call them out? call out everybody who ever accepted some risk.
Well, I'm here to admit that I too have bailed off gear in a sudden thunderstorm. So, take me to task please. i probably deserved to die up there, just for climbing under clouds, i know...
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Jul 21, 2010 - 12:42pm PT
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that's what i told my professors anyway.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jul 21, 2010 - 12:47pm PT
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213
great stuff, very informative, etc.
Even though I've sailed 3 of the seven seas and tramped/climbed in the mountains of three continents and the arctic I don't know all that stuff.
And that data isn't available to us mortals at 8 PM when we're planning tomorrow's climb.
When I go to the mountains all I can count on is whatever brief professional forecast I can glean from local sources. In Tuolumne, it's scrawled in chalk at the entrance station or at the campground office. But not at 5 AM when I'm crawling out of the sack and trying to get breakfast mess put away in the bear box. It's YESTERDAY's forecast for today.
Sorry, I'm not going to take my laptop and a satellite antenna to get the latest met. raw data nor even dig out my iPhone to look at the NOAA satellite pics (assuming I can get a connection).
So I'm on my own to observe conditions in the sky over my head, see how much dew or frost is on the grass from last night, does this morning feel different than yesterday morning, consider my route, contemplate how the local topography might affect what I see.
Go for it, pay attention on route and live with the consequences, tell the tales;
or not.
There are a myriad of variables beyond our control in climbing. Most of them are constantly changing, especially the weather. How we interpret them and act on our judgement is what it's all about. That's a great deal of the adventure. Otherwise we could stay in the gym or the local sport crags.
Bertrand and partners played the game at 11000 feet. They got the available data before they left. They carried on with their plan and got caught. Stuck out the storm, got themselves back down the route and out to the car in fine shape. No one hurt. No call for SAR. No one else at risk. That's mountaineering. That's being self sufficient.
I'd say they had a successful day.
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Rankin
climber
North Carolina
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Jul 21, 2010 - 12:53pm PT
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Old crusty climbers are the meanest people on Earth, so you have to take any criticism from this crowd with a healthy lump of salt. They mean well (edit: acutally they don't), but venom is all they spray. You can't take them too seriously. They're all big teddy bears underneath it all. Hilarious argument, really, from climbers that have been hanging it out there for 30-40 years.
Supertopo should have a poll for who is the crustiest and the mustiest at the taco stand. Hard to say how that would turn out, but if were to guess I'd say that donini would win, no...Cragsman, no...WBraun. Boy, that's quite a can of worms (edit: old, crusty, mean worms). : )
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jul 21, 2010 - 12:56pm PT
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from climbers that have been hanging it out there for 30-40 years
Well, they appear to be doing it right, ya gotta hand 'em that! Might even be wise to heed their words...
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Rankin
climber
North Carolina
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Jul 21, 2010 - 01:01pm PT
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You got that right bluering. Some bad-ass old dudes lurk here.
Seriously, though, the lesson to be learned from this is that locals know the weather patterns better than NOAA. Cragsman is a valuable resource and should be used as such.
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Jul 21, 2010 - 01:08pm PT
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Cragman as resource...
Climbing with 20% chance of rain is Wrong. So, no don't climb at Squamish, or Patagonia, or England, or in the mountains, or in the spring, summer, or winter. and never in the backcountry.
Also don't climb if there is 20% chance of leader fall. Or 20% chance of car accident. or 20% chance of bee sting. or 20% chance of getting off route. Or 20% chance of having to rescue some dumbass like me. Becasue when you sum up all those percentages, it is almost impossible to avoid some sort of danger on a climb.
Just DON"T CLIMB! I honestly don't know how Cragman can justify even going up stairs. People have gotten really hurt on stairs.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Jul 21, 2010 - 01:14pm PT
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Snorky, you're pretty funny but shouldn't we let this dog take a nap now?
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Jul 21, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
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HFCS
yer so right. But I dislocated my elbow and have little else to do. Guess I should be looking at NOAA forecasts instead. Thanks for slapping me straight.
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Ricardo Cabeza
climber
All Over.
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Jul 21, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
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I like Snorky.
Solution; Do what I do, don't bring a phone with you. That way you can't call in a rescue and no innocents put themselves in danger.
You reap what you sow...or... it separates the wheat from the chaff.
Take care of yourselves and if you perish, well, it's your own fault.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jul 21, 2010 - 01:21pm PT
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locals know the weather patterns much better than NOAA. Cragsman is a valuable resource and should be used as such. Cragman, please post your phone number and email address!! Better yet, start your own East Side Weather website http://whatthef_kistheweathergoingtodotoday/3dPillar
and run a WiFi access point in Tuolumne Meadows.
Seriously. Cragman and others have great input for the general situations that can happen. NOAA hasn't yet got a point forecast for 3d Pillar of Mt Dana.
There's no internet kiosk in Tuolumne Mdws for us to look at the various weather sites at 5 AM. Write your Congressman.
It's the difference between mountaineering and cragging, even if it's only a medium length 10a climb and only a couple of hours from the car.
Fergawdssake. Backpackers spend 30 days on the JMT. Hiking over exposed 12000 foot passes often nowhere near shelter, weather forecasts, internet or cellular service. Thunderstorms in the afternoon, sometimes all night. No Big Deal.
Learn how to watch out for and take care of yourself in all kinds of potential s&*t, cut the apron strings, get out there.
Bertrand and partners did and they didn't bitch about the results.
Do It.
<<end of rant>>
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Jul 21, 2010 - 01:27pm PT
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I want to know if Cragman owns a jacket. If he truly has a divine weather feed, and he is truly a local weather prophet, then a jacket would not only be superfluous, but a symbol of his lack of confidence in god.
edit: merely musing here.
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Fuzzywuzzy
climber
suspendedhappynation
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Jul 21, 2010 - 01:28pm PT
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Glad everyone is okay.
I was there and the signs were written in the sky the day before and in the early AM.
If it was going to storm anywhere it was on the crest.
The Fairview parking lot was an indicator of how concerned about T&L folks were that day. 2 cars.
Have alternatives, enjoy life.
Plenty of risk out there for everyone.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 21, 2010 - 01:30pm PT
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Yes, whatever else, Bertrand seems to be quite a good sport. Hopefully he can come to the FaceLift and meet many of us in person.
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 21, 2010 - 02:34pm PT
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MH, I would love to take part in that. I also have this nutty idea of hosting a bluegrass themed beer hour for this crew near some crag in the Sierras. Timid TR has some location ideas.
p.s. before friday the last time I was rained off something was 2 months ago, on a short layback pitch above jabberwocky at smoke bluffs. (white rabbit?) Cool place...I can't wait to go back and try for a full day!
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Snorky
Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
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Jul 21, 2010 - 02:56pm PT
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cragman, that's better.
seems like when you chided the OP for being "irresponsible," you were really chiding yourself for getting into all those terrible thunderstorms you mentioned. what, you're allowed to climb in bad weather in the past, but other people shouldn't do so in the present? how can we get old and crusty if we don't face risks and hazards?
i think your focus on rescues and mishaps has distorted your view of adventure altogether. perhaps that is a price to pay for taking on such valorous yet perilous work. you are so focused on fatality. what of the vitality to be gained from entering uncertain terrain and conditions, and surviving.
as we age, maybe we get more conservative, and come to disdain the haphazard freedom of youth, when we were oblivious to risk and regret. and we become envious of those who still dare to throw caution to the wind. and that is the crustiness.
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