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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Nov 23, 2005 - 12:34pm PT
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Judgment Day! Damned for eternity.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Nov 23, 2005 - 12:38pm PT
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Did someone say encore? Was that a second bow?
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426
Sport climber
Another Slopey Nightmare, TN
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Nov 23, 2005 - 12:44pm PT
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Belief Ventricle™ opens.
Inshallah™....I guess have no business speaking for It™(Him/Her/It,It). Cthulu™ Saves™ (to eat later) and Krishna™ is both a woman and a man. I love the idea of Osiris™ (9 days in 'the hole', Lazarus™ style) and believe that later "cruxification and resurrection™" mythos spawn from ancient Egyptian mythology of Osiris™ and Norse mythology, a la Thor™ crucified on the Yggdrasil™ (sic?) to bring "order™" from "chaos"™, as well as Gautama™ tempted under his personal, own "World Tree™". Let us not forget Ishtar™ and her journey de resurrection par excellence™, now, either...Yahweh™ is in there somewhere, too.....
Fill in the blanks.
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426
Sport climber
Another Slopey Nightmare, TN
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Nov 23, 2005 - 01:04pm PT
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So, "sanity by consensus" DMT?
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426
Sport climber
Another Slopey Nightmare, TN
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Nov 23, 2005 - 01:08pm PT
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So, "don't hate the playa, hate the game?"
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Nov 23, 2005 - 01:16pm PT
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Is God an invention of man to explain the invention of man?
Is God essential to spiritual belief?
When mankind is extinct, will there still be a true religion?
Will Juan please add the mountain pictures multiple times so that this thread takes 30 seconds to load?
If he does will one of the system admin's login to see what is happening on the site?
Will LEB bow out yet again.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 23, 2005 - 01:40pm PT
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Jeepers, I'm not getting anyone to bite on this one, so I'll chuck ot out there again:
Many wisdom traditions (so-called "spiritual" traditions)are not based on intellectual concepts, dogma, faith or beliefs at all. What do you imagine they do work off?? How might that work, in your opinion??
JL
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Ditch Trad
Trad climber
CA
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Nov 23, 2005 - 01:48pm PT
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Largo-on a lark, I'd say "social mores". What do you think?
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Hootervillian
climber
the Ponderosa, NV
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Nov 23, 2005 - 01:50pm PT
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work off?
right action? self reflection? symbiosis?
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Nov 23, 2005 - 01:52pm PT
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Largo- Maybe be more specific as to which 'wisdoms' you are referring to.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Nov 23, 2005 - 01:55pm PT
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Largo, you got mine. Guess you missed it.
Survival - works better in communities.
Did you know that ants are religious? There are no boss ants, they all just work together with the simplest possible program running in their nervous system. There are no atheist ants.
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Ditch Trad
Trad climber
CA
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Nov 23, 2005 - 01:55pm PT
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belief ventricles?
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pc
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2005 - 01:57pm PT
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Okay I'll bite and throw out the following.
Traditions.
They're a tool "a wise one" uses to accomplish something. Could be as simple as a story describing a natural event (they're wise so they need to come up with something to convince people to keep thinking they're wise) or it could be to make "money"/get food or get in a woman's or women's pants. Simple yes but...
I haven't studied this subject in any real way so this is just my opinion but it seems so inline with human character as to be practically indisputable. Example, I'm the youngest of 7 boys in our family. How often do you think my older brothers invented stories/situations to get me to do something? Often.
$.02
pc
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Nov 23, 2005 - 02:49pm PT
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The only difference between humans and other animals is the high level of complexity of our social groups.
Organized religion was designed to control people. Someone always want to be in charge of the rest of the group, be it a group of dogs or a group of people.
Why are people so arogant to think that they cannot be trained like a dog is trained. To believe in something so strongly without any evidence can only be explained by programming and indoctronization. We teach our kids the same way we teach our dogs and fool ourselves into thinking it is somehow different because, since we can sense and discuss our own mortality, we are better than dogs.
But I will accept that you could be right and I can be wrong. Perhaps you should consider that no matter how much you wish for something (God) and then truely believe it(God) will be, that you can still be wrong. Heck, the Egyptians might have been right and their Gods are sitting around getting a good laugh about this right now. An open mind means that you do not accept what your parents taught you and that you try to examine all of the possibilities and not reject any of them just because they don't look appealing or match what you've been taught. I'm an athiest and if I die and see God and he tells me I'm going to hell for all of this, I'll say "I did the best I could with the crappy information you made available and since you stuck me with this brain and those parents and all that really cool scientific information, I think I am all your fault. I was given free will but placed in a position where my beliefs were all pre-arranged."
Just remember, it is truly evil to throw a dog off of the roof then blame it for not flying.
Dave
PS, if there is a God of any sort, his plan would be much more complicated than puny human minds could comprehend so don't be so damned arogant and even suggest what God might do in any situation. It would be beyond your ability to understand. This includes whether I would go to hell or not for being an athiest.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 23, 2005 - 02:54pm PT
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Not sure I'm getting what's being thrown back my way per my original question, but try this on for size.
What most people consider "spiritual" (I too did this for years) is some "thing" your rational mind can quantify, understand in the normal way, prove, argue about, wrangle over, diss, suck up to, worship, et al. Moreover, once we have "it," we can weave all kinds of beliefs about it, make all kinds of sage or crazy statements about it, have faith in it, posit it with human qualities, feel "it" in our hearts, etc.
Is it possible to imagine another take on this entirely?
JL
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Ouch!
climber
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Nov 23, 2005 - 03:12pm PT
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Everything we do, think, believe is a product of our evolving genetic brains. Someday, neuroscience will unlock the secret to it all...if we don't make ourselves extinct before they work it out.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 23, 2005 - 03:12pm PT
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Largo,
Well, I personally believe the role and influence of schizophrenia in shaping social/"spiritual" rituals is greatly underestimated. Take, for example, male initiates diving off towers in New Guinea to insure the yam harvest. Where did that come from? One can only suppose Joe Bob came strolling back from the woods one day and said, "hey, check it out, I know how we can all get bigger yams next year, all we have to do is...." Reasonable enough that Joe Bob wandered off and had a schizophrenic episode, but damn curious that he managed to convince anyone to go along with him on his return. Ditto for running in front of bulls, walking on hot coals, playing with boiling oil, cutting oneself up, etc.
And these are just physically manifest rituals, many researchers in the field have suspicions about the origins of the visions of many "witch doctors", messiahs, and spiritual leaders - and of the roots of their overwhelming charisma and drive. I tend to throw in with this crowd and when I hear the stories of Bah'u'll'h (the Bab), Joseph Smith, or other such stories where someone had a "vision". I have to wonder if the world couldn't have been spared a great deal of strangeness, hardship, and death had prozac simply been available at the time. Due to our ability to widely communicate normative behavioral standards today we question the sanity of people who try to profoundly influence others after such experiences. But in days past the sheer power and drive of high functioning schizophrenics could have been overwhelming in societies under various stresses. Likewise the influence of any chieftan or king/queen that succumbed to the the disease after ascending to power would have been substantial.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 23, 2005 - 03:20pm PT
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Let me put it another way: Is it possible for you to imagine a reality beyond your own genetic/biological processing and the visions of witch doctors and saints?
JL
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pc
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2005 - 03:27pm PT
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Imagine? Yes.
Believe/Have Faith In? No.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Nov 23, 2005 - 03:28pm PT
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Largo, you need to firm up your thinking a bit. "Imagine a reality"? Mathematicians imagine all sorts of things. Are they real.
Are you searching for reality or imagination?
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