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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 13, 2010 - 09:39pm PT
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Actually studly it is not a crock as you put it. 300ft off the deck is Not the place to feel sorry for yourself and let a bunch of crap distract you. Do your job, keep your situation wired tight untill you are down safe and then have a meltdown if you need to.
Obviously you wouldn't get this concept as you are still bent out of shape from getting your ego bruised in RR a year or whatever ago...
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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May 13, 2010 - 11:31pm PT
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Charging a toll to allow a party to pass seems fair and if your
slick enough they'll never notice you collecting a biner as they go by.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 15, 2010 - 10:53am PT
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Went to take a friend from Britain up the Kor/Engles on Castleton yesterday. There was a group of five on the route. We were able to do another climb but you should never embark on a popular climb with five people.
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Pakdong
climber
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May 15, 2010 - 02:35pm PT
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RULE 1
AID CLIMBERS WILL ALWAYS MOVE OUT OF THE WAY FOR FREE CLIMBERS. IF YOU DONT KNOW YET, FREE CLIMBING IS COOL, CAUSE ITS "FREE", AND IF YOU DONT LIKE FREEDOM THEN YER A COMMIE.
RULE 2
FREE-SOLOISTS HAVE RIGHT OF WAY OVER EVERYONE, IN THE CASE WHERE ONE FREE-SOLOIST MAY PASS ANOTHER, THEY SHALL REMOVE THEIR SHIRTS AND HAVE A SOLO-DUEL(?) A' MUERTE!
RULE 3
ANYONE WEARING A SWAMI AND A HEADBAND SHOULD BE GENEROUSLY PRAISED AND GIVEN A POT BROWNIE, THEN, AFTER LISTENING TO THEIR STORY OF THE TIME THEY SAW A RACCOON TREE A BEAR IN THE PINES DURING AN ACID TRIP, YOU SHOULD LET THEM PASS
RULE 4
ALWAYS PULL ON THE GEAR OF PARTIES YOU PASS, PARTICULARLY SMALL NUTS, BEING SURE TO PLACE FULL BODY WEIGHT ON THEM WITH THE ODD BOUNCE FOR GOOD MEASURE.
RULE 5
IN THE CASE WHERE A SLOWER PARTY FAILS TO GIVE WAY; START CHAIN SMOKING CIGARETTES AT THE BELAY AND TALK IN A LOUD EASTERN-EUROPEAN ACCENT, FAIL TO TEND TO YOUR PARTNERS BELAY WHILST CRITICIZING ALL THINGS "AMERICAN". WHEN YOUR PARTNER ARRIVES, PAZZ ZEM ANYVAY! (SEE RULE 4)
RULE 6
RELAX, HAVE ZE FUN.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 15, 2010 - 05:27pm PT
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Pate, actually you are the one of the biggest Cyber bullys on this site.
It seemed quite clear from the tone of jaffes post that he was trying to shift some of the blame on to the party that passed him some time before the accident. If I am wrong on this my sincere apologys! His accident was horrible but starting a thread that points fingers like that is not a constructive move. It is complete bullshit to imply that a party passing him an hour before the accident was in any way to blame for what happened, If Jeffe brought the subject up in person I can gaurentee you that I would tell hem that it was not a healthy thought process and that the system they were useing was not a very good system.
I am not being callous and pointing fingers at Brian and Jeffe either. I am pointing out that you have to take care of yourself. You can not control what other people do on a cliff but you can control what you do. In this case that means focusing on getting down safely.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 15, 2010 - 07:22pm PT
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At that early point of the thread I had no idea who the OP was. I may not have been even replying to the Op in that post that you took out of context. I was merly discussing the topic of getting passed on a climb which has happened to most of us.
Later in the thread it became apparent who Jeffe was and that he was really angry about the passing incident and indicating that it may have had an influence on the terrible accident that followed.
If the accident had happened while they were being passed then he would have been more than justified in feeling this way. That was not the case however. The passing party was long gone, they had a 30 min discussion about the incident, they interacted with annother party, took pictures etc. They then rappeled the rout with a complicated system that they did not use properly. Both climbers actually useing a different method of decent on a complicated system added confusion factor. Furthermore if they did let the passing incident affect their performance of the rappel that in itself would be their own responsibility.
I have tons of compassion. What happened was terrible and its going to take a long time for everyone involved to process.
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SeanH
climber
San Carlos, CA
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May 15, 2010 - 07:41pm PT
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It seemed quite clear from the tone of jaffes post that he was trying to shift some of the blame on to the party that passed him some time before the accident. If I am wrong on this my sincere apologys! His accident was horrible but starting a thread that points fingers like that is not a constructive move.
Sorry, but just had to chime in. I read the original thread paying close attention, so that I might learn anything I could from it.
tradmanclimbs - When I read your above comment, I had to cringe a little bit - the poor guy is far from trying to point fingers and shift blame! Read what he originally wrote,
The only explanation I have for this oversight is distraction and complacency. Brian MAY not have been 100% focused on the task (there were several things going on... party coming behind us and he was excited to take photos of the leader below... a few moments earlier on the last pitch, we were rudely and inconsiderately passed up by a speeding simul-climbing party; this bothered both of us considerably). I am equally guilty of the same distraction and complacency for not having noticed the absence of the backup.
All he was saying is that the passing incident was something they were distracted by. I'm sure all of us have experienced incidents that lingered in our heads throughout the day. I don't think his words were written expecting people to connect the dots that had it not happened, they would have been better focused and the incident wouldn't have occurred.
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phile
Trad climber
SF, CA
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May 15, 2010 - 08:23pm PT
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to answer the OP's question: I would have been very upset had I been passed like that--I would have reacted a lot like you and your partner did. Reading your post brought back memories of an a-hole pass a party of 3 did on me on third pillar of dana a year ago. It still makes me angry to think about it. They didn't slow us down a lot, but... it was a very different set of ethics than I climb with.
Some are saying (well, possibly just one person is saying) that you should have gotten over the rudeness and just got on with it. I would like to be the kind of person who could do that (just get on with it), but instead it tainted my experience of the climb. I would like to be a better person... but it'd be nice if there weren't so many a-holes out there revealing my weakness.
I thought you did a solid job of trying to divorce your question from the tragic context. Unfortunately, it obviously didn't work. Internet forums can be a b!tch.
Take care.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 15, 2010 - 08:38pm PT
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Yes, Internet forums can be a bitch and I tend to get sucked into discussing things that I should just leave alone. Its easy to argue and get stuck on preceptions that may or may not be the posters intent. That can happen on both sides of the discussion.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 15, 2010 - 09:07pm PT
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Phille, when I first got involved in this discussion I had no idea the context of it. No clue that the OP had just experienced a fatal accident, I was merly participating in a discussion about a fairly hot topic. getting passed and passing.
With that in mind, however rude it was of the party that passed you on the Third pillar, would it have been acceptable for a member of your party to dwell on that incident to the point that they lost concentration and did something stupid that endangered both of you?
The bottom line is that climbers must be able to overcome distractions and focus on the basics that we need to cover to stay alive. My experience is tiny compared to many on this site but here are a few examples.
Load a guy with serious head injury and punctured lung in a litter and then set up and exicute 5 rappels, stung by bees while soloing, stung by bees while leading, treated rudly by other climbers many times, partner fell off mountain while simo soloing so I had to finish soloing the rout that I was on, down climb the ajacent gully and then help with rescue, love of my life informs me that we are finished just as I am about to start the crux pitch of an 8 pitch climb. etc,etc, etc.
The reality is that we have to be able to control our emotions when climbing so that they don't control us. Maybe I find this easier than other folks because of my extensive martial arts background?
Not saying that I never get upset. I am saying that I know how and when to stop everything, pull my sh#t together and keep it together untill everyone is safe on the ground. That is a mandatory skill set for anyone thinking of doing multi pitch climbs INMOP.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 15, 2010 - 09:28pm PT
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TR, You are absolutly correct that we need to be nice to each other. You shouldn't forget that being nice may involve realizeing that you are slowing up someone else. It goes both ways. If you are going slow on the highway and notice that you have a line of cars behind you, the nice thing to do is pull over and let them by. At the same time it's not nice to honk your horn, flash your lights and give Italian hand signals to the person in front of you.
Everyone should be nice. The fast people and the slow people.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 15, 2010 - 09:38pm PT
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"this may be so but if you're climbing over someone and it's messing them up, YOU need to stop, not blame them. i mean, yeah, this is an individualistic culture and all, and people should be responsible for how they react to stuff, but really, people are only human."
TR, If someone is about to have an accident while your climbing all over them then yes you do need to stop! If they decide to have an accident long after you have passed them then they need to chill out and pay attention.
Back to driveing anology.
#1,Guy in a big truck runs you off the road and you crash. It's the big trucks fault.
#2 Guy in a big truck almost runs you off the road and it freaks you out so much that you and your passenger gripe about it for 30 min, get all worked up over what an as#@&%e the guy in the big truck was while you are speeding down the road at 65mph. You run a red light and T bone a school buss.. Who's fault is it now?
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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May 15, 2010 - 10:22pm PT
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the only reason to combine climbing and racing is if you are getting paid.
you load up your car, pay a ransom for gas, fight the traffic, fight more traffic in yosemite, cram into your campground, then finally, FINALLY!
you are on the rock. everything is beautiful. peaceful, it was all worth it.
then, some peckerhead dickbrain from planets unknown, sees fit
to ruin your vibe, all in 5 seconds.
"hey, can i pass, man?, like, my reason in life is to do a sub 2 hr link up on all 8,000 routes in the park by mid october.
why?
my girfriend told me i have a small penis, and i have to prove to the world, who knows nothing of my deeds, btw, that i am king sh#t jockomatic from the youth gym in berlin. "
Sure. i find people who are having the time of their life and then I go f*#k up their trip.
FREQUENTLY.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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May 15, 2010 - 10:59pm PT
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Ethics and etiquette are not the same thing.
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Bob Fellner
Trad climber
Carrboro, N. Carolina
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May 16, 2010 - 12:16am PT
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I really dont mean to pile on here but...
Bob, Don't let your ego get involved ;)
Tradman, lack of ego is one of the main reasons I climb. I have a love hate relationships with gym climbing, I love going and getting a good pump on but I hate how the atmosphere in most gyms is ohh check this move out or watch me send that... too much ego. I love being outside but even there, I hate ratings on routes aside from the fact that they give me an indication of whether or not I should be attempting a route. My statement that I deserve to be on classic is justified, if it's public and you can go do it, why cant I? Because your faster?
I climb for... all the same reasons everyone else will list including the zen like place you have to take your mind to achieve pushing the edge of your ability but when you are half way up a route and something pulls you out of that place it can be hard or impossible for some people to get back. I am not participating in shifting the blame of the accident but can see why it might affect someone. Not everyone has the "cool-hand luke" badassedness and martial art mastery you do to be able to shrug-off something shocking or terrifying.
Oh and Donini I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that Went to take a friend from Britain up the Kor/Engles on Castleton yesterday. There was a group of five on the route. We were able to do another climb but you should never embark on a popular climb with five people.
was a backhanded slap at me implying that not everyone deserves to be on a classic... Buy the land and then you can designate who is worthy.
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blr
climber
socal
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May 16, 2010 - 01:29am PT
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I just read this entire thread (studying for finals) and I don't come away with the feeling that Japhy is trying to shift blame at all. It sounds to me like he would have posted about this sooner if it weren't for the accident.
tradmanclimbs, I think everyone gets what you're saying, it's just that many here don't agree with your premise that Japhy is shifting blame... thus, you kind of come off as an a-hole. I do actually agree with you though on the general topics of passing and keeping your mental facilities about you while climbing. In reality though, people are different, and you are going to run into those who aren't so good at it from time to time.
Japhy, the way you described those people passing you is completely unacceptable in my opinion. I would have been quite pissed too. I'm sorry that you had to deal with it, and I'm sorry for the loss of your friend.
On the original topic, I think that passing sucks for everybody involved, but sometimes its more or less necessary. No matter how much you try to avoid it, a competent climber is eventually going to get stuck behind a slow party at some point. Otherwise the trade routes would be the strict domain of only slow people. The argument of "I woke up first, so it's my route" only goes so far. Both parties should be considerate and keep their egos in check. I've let faster parties pass me before and I've passed slow parties myself. Every time those two "rules" are used, it's been an okay experience.
On a side note, I once had a guy say that I couldn't pass because he didn't want to risk any falling rock... only there was already a party above that they clearly started after. I guess the rock fall argument is more of an issue in the afternoon than it is in the morning.
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Bob Fellner
Trad climber
Carrboro, N. Carolina
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May 16, 2010 - 02:30am PT
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Hi Jim,
and how are you?
Im not advocating people make a norm out of parties of five or "conga lines".
Actually, I myself am irritated that my participation in this thread has been pulled off topic to who should be allowed to climb what but that apparently is my point now, who should get to decide who climbs what? What does it take to be worthy to climb a classic and how must you do it... please do tell?
~Bob
Edit: For the record I would like to be clear, I offered my opinion on the topic as a novice, stating such and for that was attacked by a few, one being tradmanclimbs so I was definitely not in a rare category there. The other being a "renown" expert who in the process, inferred there is ground that lesser mortals should not travel. Climbing is a solitary sport to be enjoyed with a few friends in the way that you desire without the rules most other sports demand. That said there are rules of etiquette that should be adhered to which is what this thread is about but the last I checked telling someone they couldn't climb somewhere on public lands because they were not as good as another who decided to say so is not part of the sport. I am not going to take being told such either just because the person doing the telling should be revered. It's like traveling around the world to surf some great wave you've seen video of and though your not the best surfer and you don't live there you paddle out, wait your turn and then get bumped off your board by the locals or get your legrope cut. Is that what the climbing world is at the upper echelons? No thanks, Ill stay at the local crag and have fun with my friends, you can keep your classics.
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SeanH
climber
San Carlos, CA
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May 16, 2010 - 04:42am PT
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Bob (and all chiming in on the classics debate),
There are very few hard and fast rules in climbing. No one's going to physically go and stop you from starting up Cobra Crack, or Jumbo Love, or the rostrum, etc, etc. But everyone has their limits, and whether they'd admit it externally or not, most people have an idea what those limits are.
It's similar with surfing. You go paddle out (if you can) to Mavericks and you're not in that league, you'll probably drown. You see people surfing triple overhead in hawaii or something and think you can catch a flight out there to "try it out", it doesn't work that way. Locals, or at least, people in that league, will at the least be annoyed by your presence, if you aren't outright being a danger to yourself and others.
The point is, why go rope up on a "classic" that's above your ability if it's going to take you 4x longer than it should to do it, and you have a good risk of epicing, when you should be putting in your time elsewhere to get the skills to go do said classic in proper style, or close to it? You're going to hold people up, and for what? Just because you can?
I don't understand the need to argue over any of this, it should all be common sense. In normal life, I'm far from the most zen, easy going person in the world. But when you get out on a cliff at yosemite (or any crag really), your ego should be checked at the door, and you should do whatever makes everyone's life easier. It's about getting away from the stresses of "normal life", period.
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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May 16, 2010 - 05:12am PT
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I think it is fair to ask to pass if you catch up to a party from several pitches below.
At the same time I think it's fair for the slow party to say, "sorry... we were here first."
I just don't get when an experienced party gets on an easy trade route then gets pissed that it's crowded with slow parties. Like...duh! Get up earlier or get on a 5.10 or harder multipitch if you don't want to wait.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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May 16, 2010 - 12:40pm PT
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the first person who passes me is gonna get shot.
and i do mean that.
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