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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 11, 2010 - 10:17am PT
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Back to the EDK rolling thing. Dress it tight. It may roll in static pull tests but it will NOT roll in climbing aplication if you dress it tight and neat. If it ever does roll then YOU tied a sloppy knott.
Back up below vs above. First I never would have bit on this one except DR called the autoblock below the device Idiotic or some such thing.
The prusic above the device locks up when you don't want it to and slips when you want it to lock.. It requires much more force to lock up unless it is jamming by accident in which case it takes very little force. Murphy has his tricks. It takes lots of force and tricks to free up again.
The autoblock below the device takes very little force to work. It does not support the climbers weight but merely acts as the brake hand to activate the rappell device. Locks up easy, easy to unlock. Also can be applied to the rope before you stuff the rope into your rap device takeing the weight off the rope and makeing it easy to get into your device.
Use whatever you like but don't call this very usefull method idiotic simply because you are too stubborn to learn it correctly ;)
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 11, 2010 - 10:24am PT
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I have made thousands of rappels in my 45 years of climbing, many of them under extreme conditions- Latok 1, Patagonia and Alaska come to mind. The only given is to pay COMPLETE ATTENTION to what you are doing.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 11, 2010 - 10:40am PT
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Yes. Especially be METHODICAL when setting it up.
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Manjusri
climber
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May 11, 2010 - 10:46am PT
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Nice pics Delhi. The Kleimheist pic is not an autoblock, though they are similar. In the autoblock the cord/runner does not pass through itself before clipping.
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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May 11, 2010 - 11:28am PT
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There are obviously many ways to safely rappel, and favoring one system over another clearly comes down to personal preference. However, I cannot figure out where the "flat figure 8" enters this discussion.
I have never climbed with anyone that has tied that knot to link two rappel ropes together.
The figure 8 follow thru, on the other hand, is strong, simple, easy to check, does not require back-up knots (although back-up knots are almost never a bad idea), and is easy enough to untie with gloves on. Also, it does not roll when weighted. It is reasonably low in profile such that it rarely (if ever) snags on the pull.
Why the flat figure 8??
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climbingcook
Trad climber
sf
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May 11, 2010 - 11:39am PT
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Why the flat figure 8?? My best guess is that it comes from people reading about joining two ropes with a figure eight and assuming they should be tied like an eight on a bight.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 11, 2010 - 11:45am PT
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Na, pretty shuer it come from folks learning the EDK and thinking its too flimsy so they think they are super smart and figuer they can do the same thing with a fig 8 and have a stronger knott.. OOppps Splat...
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climbingcook
Trad climber
sf
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May 11, 2010 - 11:49am PT
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While we're discussing incorrect figure eight knots for rappelling, why not use two figure eights on bights girth-hitched together? It's needlessly complex, it's likely to snag, it takes a relatively long time to tie, and it has no obvious benefit...
Someone should suggest it on rc.com...
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 11, 2010 - 11:50am PT
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A Flemish bend by definition never 'rolls', and you need never fear that it might. QED.
In the spirit of RC.noob, climbingcook's knot is totally wrong. The loop of one bight should simply loop/catch the other - there's no need to make a reef knot of them.
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Delhi Dog
Trad climber
Good Question...
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Topic Author's Reply - May 11, 2010 - 11:55am PT
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"The Kleimheist pic is not an autoblock, though they are similar. In the autoblock the cord/runner does not pass through itself before clipping. "
-Thanks!
The picture stands corrected by this statment;
"The "Autoblock" is essentially the same knot as the Klemheist, except that in the last step you simply clip both tails together with a carabiner, rather than feeding one through the other."
from http://www.chockstone.org/techtips/prusik.htm
"Why the flat figure 8?"
Only put it there because it was referenced earlier...agreed by all that it is NOT the KNOTT to tie.
Cheers,
DD
edit...okay almost all...those pesky Euros :-)
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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May 11, 2010 - 12:00pm PT
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Climbingcook, you may think that is a joke, but many of us used something very similar for years: a square knot backed by double-fisherman's. A bit on the bulky side, but not hard or slow to tie, and unmatched in ease of untying.
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ExtraBlue
Ice climber
the ford VT
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May 11, 2010 - 12:03pm PT
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DR
When you make prussiks from Spectra over Nylon doesn't this increase the chances of melting-heat damaging the prussik since Spectra has a lower melting point??
-Random Question
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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May 11, 2010 - 12:26pm PT
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In the spirit of RC.noob, climbingcook's knot is totally wrong. The loop of one bight should simply loop/catch the other - there's no need to make a reef knot of them.
I'm not proud to say I did that recently...seemed quick and solid.
I'm sticking with the Fig-8 follow through.
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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May 11, 2010 - 12:30pm PT
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I'm with Tradmanclimbs.
 prussic above= idiotic. Prone to locking up, out of reach, hair pull, etc, etc.
low melting point cord= not smart. Supposed to be safety for emergency situations, right? Like if you lost control and gained too much speed...
multiple raps call for threading alternate ropes through anchors, so be able to pull either rope.
IMHO, one of the most dangerous scenarios is getting the rope stuck when pulling it. Therefore, EDK, no super skinny lines, sometimes not even knots in the rope ends. Definitely no biner at the knot.
I use lead line, 7.8mm trail/rap line (dynamic- emergency lead line doubled), and deal with slight knot creep. Also autoblock from 6 mm nylon cord
benefit of autoblock below device includes that the cord takes the friction/heat/oxides, not the hand
If there's any rope stick potential, DON'T let the newbie pull the rope!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 11, 2010 - 12:46pm PT
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Never forget to say a prayer to the rope gods just as you pull the rope.....
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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May 11, 2010 - 02:48pm PT
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How to thread a single rope through both ATC holes to increase friction and control: especially useful with super skinny rappel lines when it is hard to maintain control.
I've done this ONCE on a 7mm rap line, after balking on rapping the "normal" way. My friend suggested it, I tried it, and it works.
But I've never seen it elsewhere. So I welcome all comments!
from the top:
from the bottom:
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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May 11, 2010 - 02:53pm PT
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I'd be a little nervous because that rig bets your show on the cross-piece of the ATC,
which is not a beefy part.
The double- or triple-biner system seems more bomber.
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climbingcook
Trad climber
sf
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May 11, 2010 - 02:55pm PT
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How to thread a single rope through both ATC holes to increase friction and control: especially useful with super skinny rappel lines when it is hard to maintain control.
I've done this ONCE on a 7mm rap line, after balking on rapping the "normal" way. My friend suggested it, I tried it, and it works.
But I've never seen it elsewhere. So I welcome all comments!
I wouldn't be all that comfortable with that setup. The way you've got the rope threaded across the center bar of the ATC means the bar is the only thing keeping you from cratering.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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May 11, 2010 - 02:56pm PT
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I wouldn't do that. Nor would I rap on a 7mm. I think a lot of these weight saving tricks inject unneeded risk and complication.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 11, 2010 - 03:02pm PT
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Another way to increase control when rappelling with a thin rope or ropes, when using a 'standard' belay device (9 - 11 mm), is to reverse it so that the wide/flared end of the device faces away from the carabiner, and the narrow end is in. Also, to use a second and even third carabiner to clip the rope and device to the harness. It may be a bit jerky, but works.
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