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elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
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Sorry Bro... don't believe in the Devil either. Did you know that a survey recently found that 25% of americans believe that the devil is actually a little creature that comes out of the ground to cause trouble? Amazing!!
Sorry but I don't believe in the power of Prayer either. So many go unanswered ... Prayer makes no sense to me. Either there is no god and it is thus useless or there is a god and it is still useless...
Here is why.
You believe that god is all knowing and powerful.. right?
So, even though you have free will, god still knows what is going to happen to you in the future... if he didn't then he wouldn't be all knowing now would he.. right? In fact you believe that god already knows if I will be "saved" or not. He knows what you are thinking and what I am thinking, according to your beliefs ... right? And you believe that god knows far more about my situation that you do. You believe that god is perfect and never makes mistakes... right?
You have confidence that god will do the right thing, because of course what ever he does is always the right thing and you can't tell him anything that he doesn't already know anyway. Right? So your prayer is not going to influence him in the least because he already knows if I am going to be "saved" or not. And because he already knows then he is powerless to change that or that would mean he didn't really know the situation in the first place and that is, as you know, impossible.
In fact the very idea of you telling him what he should do is in a way a statement from you that you don't think he can handle the situation without your input. Or that he doesn't already know that you.. say..hope I am saved. So by asking him to do something you are really saying that he needs to be told what is going on. He already knows what is going on so you are wasting your time. God can figure things out without your input, unless of course you think he can't... then by all means... pray on Bro!
I will take my chances with god. I am perfectly confident he is a myth and nothing more.
I have tried these discussions with the religious in the past in hopes of finding some rational to their beliefs. It never works. Religion is not rational. I was educated as an engineer and taught Physics and mathematics for 30 years... as such I taught critical thinking and problem solving. I think that reason and scientific proof is the best way to understand the universe. So I am always asking for proof and reasons and the religious, like yourselves, have none of that to offer in the final analysis. You believe without such tools. I can't. I find these topics interesting but quickly tiring .... as you yourselves do.
I think I have heard what you have to say and none of it meets my criteria. Of course none of what I have to say meets yours either. So life goes on ... and know that hate has no place in my life. In fact that is one dagger that would be best left unthrown, as it is unproductive in an argument... argument meaning an exchange of ideas not an emotional response of anger.
Thanks for your input.... no personal offense meant and none taken. Good luck!
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Clarification:
Prayer isn't for you, nor for me....it isn't about you! In God's eyes it's about you but in our eyes it's about God and others!
"37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." - Matthew 22:37-40
Was anything ever mentioned in those scriptures about you or me?! Prayer is for Him and for others! The order is God, Family, Church...everything we (Christians) do in our life is for these three things, in that order (study it out). Our life, our minds, our job, our income, our possessions, are for God, Family, and Church! We've got it all backward. Again, was anything mentioned about anything being for ourselves?! We are mistaken to be asking for anything for ourselves! God promises to bless us if we follow his commandments so the by-product of following His commandments is answered prayer, but it's not to be expected. Remember, Love is "The willing, sacrificial giving of oneself, for the benefit of another, without thought of return." Again, "It's not about you!" It's all about God, Family, and Church!
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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El Cap,
God commands me to pray for you, so I'm not praying because I don't think He can take care of it Himself. I'm just trying to obey what He commands me to do.
"43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? - Matthew 5:43-46
You see, He even promises a reward if I endure hardship.
I don't claim to have every answer and I even question the "Good Book" myself. But the Bible even tells me to raise questions...
"21Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob.
22Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come.
23Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.
24Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you.
25I have raised up one from the north, and he shall come: from the rising of the sun shall he call upon my name: and he shall come upon princes as upon morter, and as the potter treadeth clay.
26Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and beforetime, that we may say, He is righteous? yea, there is none that sheweth, yea, there is none that declareth, yea, there is none that heareth your words.
27The first shall say to Zion, Behold, behold them: and I will give to Jerusalem one that bringeth good tidings.
28For I beheld, and there was no man; even among them, and there was no counsellor, that, when I asked of them, could answer a word.
29Behold, they are all vanity; their works are nothing: their molten images are wind and confusion." - Isaiah 41:21-29
After I read this I ask, "Why would someone (if this wasn't inspired by God) ask me to challenge their word if they weren't able to back up their claim?" It doesn't make sense for a man to lay claim, to put their reputation or their life on the line by claiming this and for someone to be able to prove it wrong! These verses are telling us to present our case! Put it all on the table and show them, prove what you are saying is right, show them that they're wrong! But you see what the conclusion was and will be when you do. It's a lot more than what you/I can imagine El Cap (remember what Genesis 6:5 said about our "imaginations" in my earlier post)!
Based on this and much much more I have accepted that it is the Truth, for it's the only book that lays claim to this, that has the profound evidence in which it presents and since there can only be one Truth, I've found it! Instead of trying to prove it wrong, I've decided to let IT prove itself right. Even better, I'm 100% sure that if I died today, I'm going to spend eternity in Heaven. Even if this turns out to be all a hoax and I die, I'll never know it...because I'm dead. BUT, when it turns out to be the Truth, and I die, I'll either end up spending eternity with Jesus Christ or eternity in hell! And you think life is bad now, here on earth? This is as good as it gets! But it's your choice. I've made mine. You're willing to take that chance?!
Oh, and I don't quickly tire of this...it's worth much too much for someone to go to hell. If I can prevent someone from going through what I've been through, and from where I was heading I'll keep trying. I've got a 25 year old atheist son too. But he'll always be my son and I'll never tire of being his mentor...Love: "the willing, sacrificial giving of oneself, for the benefit of another, without thought of return."
I'll bet you Physics and Mathematics doesn't touch on this.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Adios, TripL7!!!
Adios, illusion dweller!!!
Don't let the door knob hit you in the back on your way out.
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elcap-pics
Big Wall climber
Crestline CA
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thanks for your comments and views men... but I have given all the time I can spare to this thread and have no more time for it.
keep it real guys and do good things ... good deeds are valuable in themselves.
later Tom
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I like the ones promoting slavery- Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT for example.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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And then there are the ones condemning homosexuality: Genesis 19:5, Leviticus 18:22, 20:13 and Romans 1: 26-27.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nearly forgot the passages promoting murder: Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT, Exodus 22:17, Leviticus 20:13.....et al.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Finally, a couple with Jesus promoting theft: Matthew 21:12, Mark 11:2.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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"But realize this, that in the last days difficult times shall come. For men shall become lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self control, brutal haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God." 2 Timothy 3:1-4
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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In response to "I like the ones promoting slavery- Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT for example."...
The Sacred and the Mundane: The Message of Leviticus
by Peter J. Haas
Peter J. Haas is an ordained rabbi and associate professor of Jewish thought and literature in the department of religious studies at Vanderbilt University. This article appeared in The Christian Century, October 8, 1997, pp. 877-882. Copyright by The Christian Century Foundation; used by permission. Current articles and subscription information can be found at www.christiancentury.org. This article prepared for Religion Online by Ted & Winnie Brock.
This is a just one paragraph from that article:
"Leviticus presents us with a unique and detailed view into the mental world of a particular segment of biblical society. It speaks out of an institutional setting that is quite foreign to us, even if we have taken over much of its vocabulary. But the larger themes that Leviticus is working out through its minute "how to" instructions are universal religious themes. Leviticus tells us how to be holy not in emotion, intention or religious feeling, but in the details of everyday life. There are lessons here for us moderns, who often treat religion as an activity to be squeezed into a couple of hours on Friday nights or Sunday mornings. Leviticus suggests that everything we do can have a sacred quality if we pay attention to the details and perform each act properly. Although we do not have to do things exactly according to Leviticus, the book is not irrelevant."
It is apparent that life back in this biblical society was much different than how some may interpret the practices of that time, today, ie; "bondmen" and "bondmaids". Another example of how taking scripture out of context can be detrimental to it's intent.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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May 02: RAPID RETURN
"If they sin against Thee (for there is no man that sinneth not)... yet if they bethink themselves... and so return to Thee with all their heart... forgive Thy people" (1 Kings 8:46-50). "I thought on my ways, and turned my feet unto Thy testimonies. I made haste, and delayed not to keep Thy commandments" (Psalm 119:59,60). "O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?" (Matthew 14:31).
I remember those days when I pondered my path,
And I thought on my ways as I drew near to wrath.
I remember my haste when I then turned my feet,
When I took my first taste of the Gospel so sweet!
I remember the start when the Lord purged my sin,
And the joy of my heart when He first entered in.
I remember, yet still, there are times when I stray
From my Lord's perfect will when I have my own way.
I remember my Savior, and return to my Lord
To confess my behavior, and my soul is restored.
I remember and haste with a rapid return.
What mercies I waste when I'm slower to learn!
I remember, O God, and I'm still finding out
How little and flawed is my faith when I doubt!
http://quiettimepoems.blogspot.com/
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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i wrote a book and matrabated upon it
and sold the world to it.
they bought it and i bought a blow up partner
and the rest is folly.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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What was the title of the book Norweenie? Let me guess. it was all about your favorite subject...YOU!!
OH, i get it, your being facetious and commenting on the Author of the Holy Bible...how blasphemous and unholy of YOU!!
And all in the hopes of gaining a few more adherents to the Norweenie fan club.
How VAIN!!
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Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
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Trip8 - Delusional...
The actual quote "you don't have to lecture on this subject.. I know there is no god, no matter how much sense you seem to make.. if only to yourself.."
There is no god.. get over it. I know that you cannot get your head around it.. but you can ask yourself the real questions.. and if answered honestly, you too may come to this conclusion.
Cheers
Trip Edit: Not sure if you said that someone has followed my advice...., you have automatically given me some authority I have not earned, nor asked for... But thank you for thinking so highly of me. Appreciate it!
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Dave C
Trad climber
Louisville CO
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This is a climbing web site not a religious web site. Please take your rants somewhere else.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Dave C!
The rants are from the disenters like yourself, jingy, weschrist. el-cap pics, etc. etc.!
Yes, it is a climbing websight i am a climber, as is Gobee, Illusiondweller, and many other believers who post and contribute on many threads.
I didn't start responding to untel threads that challenged us came on to the sight such as "Nortons Creationist take a called strike...run to dugout." "God is a Fag..." etc. etc. By atheist such as the above and dozens others started posting there hate God threads here, so naturally we responded.
Where were you then to dissent in regards to there threads?? Or are you in full agreement to the Atheist(Atheism is a religion)posting such threads??
Like you said it is a climbers forum, discussing anything of interest to climbers, look at the wide variety of subjects!!
We simply desire to communicaate specifically with climbers that are Christians, and share simple things, such as passages from the Bible...three words "Favorite Bible Passages" that would probably get posted once or twice a day, except for all the God haters that come on and attempt to destroy or faith.
Aint gonna happen.
I lurked and occasionaly posted on this sight, heard about some of my dearest friends dieing, and so forth for five or so years and then finally I had enough of the Haters and Blasphemers, and lier's.
This sight is for everyone...get over it!!
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Jingy, just admit that you can not be 100% sure if there is a God!
I was not 100% sure until I actually asked Him into mylife. He then will reveal Himself to you beyond doubt, 100%. What do you have to loose? Just asmit that you are not 100% sure. Nobody can be. Admit that, and then simply ask Him into your life if He really does exist.
He will cut you that much slack. But you must ask.
He is more real and powerful than anything in this Universe.
Please don't blow it.
You and Tobin must have discussed this many times! Do you think Tobin was delusional? All the Scientist, MD's, Lawyers, University Prof. etc. that are believers?
EDIT: Yeah, I thought it was good advice to simply post favorite Bible verses...then I got called out by elcap-pics!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Hate to tell you this Illusion Dweller but right wing Christian kooks are quite renowned for taking bible passages out of context to suit their needs.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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I agree donini, Christians make mistakes too!
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