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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Apr 12, 2010 - 02:55am PT
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There is a pair of peregrines that nest on the Grand Wall of the Stawamus Chief pretty much every year. Most years on a ledge about 400 m up and well to the right of the Grand Wall route, near a route called Freeway, although once right on the Grand. The closure is usually from spring through the end of July. All routes on either side for perhaps 200 m, except for the first few pitches off the ground. It seems to work reasonably well, although BC Parks could sometimes be more pro-active about messaging. Naturally there are some poachers - some day an example will be made of some. Community shaming if not charges.
There may be other pairs of peregrines in the Squamish area, noting that it's a major estuary on the Pacific flyway. There are zillions of birds there, lots of ravens, and a couple thousand bald eagles overwinter in Squamish. Our particular peregrines don't seem to be too affected by humans - one of the great pleasures of climbing the Split Pillar and Grand Wall in June or July is the the peregrines and fledglings swooping and stooping just off the wall. Perhaps the closure area could be smaller, perhaps not. And peregrinoia is a worry for some - the idea that birds, and nature, sometimes get priority in a park. Horrors!
A friend with a doctorate in raptor biology has mentioned that there are several sub-species of peregrines, some of which are quite shy, some not. Also that individual pairs have their own behaviours, but that most like to be safe. Here, the big problem is predation by ravens and bald eagles - a sole peregrine on a nest doesn't have much defence.
Like it or not, peregrines are an iconic species, and climbers meddle with them at our own risk - notwithstanding that the twitchers are sometimes quite irrational about the subject.
ps I liked the photo of the multi-coloured lizards from the Nose, but not the story of why they were there.
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slevin
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Apr 12, 2010 - 04:08am PT
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Once again....Peregrines are not endangered. They were removed from the list 11 years ago. Once again... Not being on the ESL does not mean that the species are thriving. But it's ok, let the nature take it course. While we are at it, we can ensure that the only surviving species are the ones that can breathe carbon monoxide, digest plastic and steal food from our trash.
As the the only intelligent and one of the dominant multi-cellular species on this planet, we have responsibility. Just my view.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Apr 12, 2010 - 12:30pm PT
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there are several sub-species of peregrines, some of which are quite shy,
I've never heard of sub-species being defined by behavior although your friend may have only been noting a coincidental trait.
I would be interested to see the scientific definition of 'shy'. My ex is a wildlife biologist of no small repute (and now a citizen of the Great Northland) so I have a strongly ingrained sense of skepticism regarding wildlife biology 'findings'. I know they like to think they are applying bona fide scientific rigor to their studies but chemistry and physics it ain't.
A case in point is how the Spotted Owl's declining numbers were 'firmly' related to old-growth logging.
Now it appears that more honest observers are admitting that the Spotted's close relative the Barred has been muscling the Spotted out as the Barred is much more 'aggressive' and has been expanding its range in the west at the expense of the Spotted.
Another anecdote of interest to those of a certain antiquity is the fight over the Alaskan Pipeline. Those of us still able to remember will recall how the biologists were adamant that the pipeline would totally disrupt the caribou's migrations.
Earthen ramps were built over the pipeline every mile because the biologists said the caribou would be too 'shy' to
walk underneath it despite it being plenty high enough. Having worked at Kuparuk and Prudhoe Bay I can assure you that the caribou read none of those biologists' reports. If you drive around there on a nice summer day you will often be hard-pressed to see a caribou aside from the ones you may have had to shoo away from your truck in the camp parking lots. Away from the camps you would be advised to look for caribou standing under the pipe. It did not take them long to see the pipeline as a godsend for providing shade on a warm day and a venturi effect to amplify any bit of breeze to help keep those damn bugs off. And those ramps? Well, they turn out to be of some use. The bulls find them quite useful for standing guard over their harems as heatstroke and blood loss are small prices to pay for keeping your booty together.
Finally, as I've noted before, I did extensive research in preparation for my court case, the United States vs The Heinous Bird-Hater, back in '86. I had the temerity to disregard signs and willfully endangered a nesting falcon the species of which was never noted so it could have been a Prairie. Yes, Mr card-carrying Audubon member climbed a ridge separated from said nest by one statute mile horizontally and a canyon over 1000' deep and that was to the base of the 1500' cliff! Anyway, I was unable to find any meaningful research done in the US. However, I did find a good number of studies done in Britain and Australia which all generally concurred that Peregrines are rather unaffected by climbers as long as they stay away about 100' horizontally and don't climb directly beneath or, more importantly, directly above. One Australian study noted a nesting pair seemingly unaffected by a large housing development below their rather smallish crag. Those with a sense of humour will note that I was not allowed to present any of my research as I was 'unable' to establish the 'expert nature' of my sources, or some such nonsense.
In summary, rather than impugning my love for wildlife I ask that the discussion address scientific honesty and bureaucratic capriciousness in cherry-picking studies to base closures on. Or why do different agencies have different 'standards' if said standards are 'scientifically based'?
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greg orton
climber
Southwest Oregon
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Apr 13, 2010 - 12:03pm PT
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Jesse, I know your the messenger, but I feel a need for a follow up because this is a common problem in other areas, not just Yosemite.
In the closure notice is states that the Peregrine will be monitored and closure lifted once the young fledge, but then states in the last paragraph that the closure will extend to August 1, 2010. And you're response was "The August 1st date is sometimes a couple weeks later and sometimes a couple weeks earlier than the ideal period depending on weather and other factors. We want to be consistent, but we will also try to open areas early if the fledlings are thriving and have stopped occupying the eyries."
This discrepence in language is not only misleading, but in the wrong hands it has lead personality based closures rather than policy based closures. I'd like to see the notice just say in clear terms that the eyrie will be monitored and closure lifted after the young fledge. I don't feal the fear to protect a second nesting attempt justifies your ambiguous language.
In a previous message "Jack Herer" brought up the absurdity of the Menagerie closure on the Willamette National Forest in Western Oregon. With out going into details, the Menagerie has become a poster child to the abuse of power and mismanagement of public access that can take place when the wrong personalities are put in place to manage the same arbitrary language as in your closure.
Other than cleaning up the language of your closure, I support what you are doing. And I appreciate your extra efforts at communitcating your agencies policies to climbers.
For those who are questioning the reason for even having closures now that Peregrine have recovered. Yes, they are recovered, whether politically recovered or not. But, shouldn't our climbing be in balance with the climbing environment and not inspite or disregard of it? It is true that one failed eyrie will not cause a collaps in the Peregine population as a whole and send the Peregrine back into the Endangered species catagory. Nor will the lose of every eyrie on every climbing wall in America. What is lost is the essense of climbing. If you don't understand this then you may want to stay in the gym. Reasonable closures are a small price to pay for the opportunity to climb with Peregrine.
That said, I feel that a history of secrecy, over restictive public access, abuse of power, and arbitrary language have lead to warranted public mistrust. I feel we are still a few mediations or court cases away from bringing many of these arbitrary closures and abuses into line with what it means to have reasonable closures.
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JakeW
Big Wall climber
CA
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Apr 13, 2010 - 01:54pm PT
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If I ever find a partner and have a kid, I hope people don't climb through my nest.
I wish all humans made the choice to go light through the generations, like peregrines or bushmen, seeking to be in balance and leave room for diversity, which in turn means plenty of food and a high quality of life for those individuals that do live.
Unfortunately, evolution has, for now, favored humans who choose the success of the species through overpopulation, like ants. This requires a regulated society and a lot more work to force food out of the limited amount of space between us...since our immense presence hasn't left enough space for the free and wild existence of the plants and animals we eat.
I'm psyched to spend time in a place like Yosemite, that people have decided not to completely destroy, and I'm glad some people appreciate the other animals and plants here, pay attention to their lifestyles, and freely respect them, irregardless of laws.
Maybe someday people can return to a more free and wild existence, live more directly with, and in balance with the rest of life, and our presence will be small enough that we won't have to worry about what lives we might be exterminating with our everyday lifestyle...
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 13, 2010 - 03:15pm PT
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It seems to me they have done a pretty good job limiting the impacts to climbers in this case. Sure we might be able to whittle down the closures a little more, but that would take more research/money. What is closed is really pretty minimal and a small sacrifice to make IMO. When whole crags are closed that can be bogus but that's not the situation here.
Jesse, it's your job to get the word out, so I'd suggest you try to disengage from your emotions and personal feelings on the forum. It's difficult or impossible to change anyone's opinion on this so let it be. Other posters will point out the hyprocrisy, faulty logic, and selfishness in some posts. Just the facts, man.
Everyone is entitled to their opinions but all species are NOT equal IMO. Is killing a mosquito the same as killing a human? Animals at the top of the food chain are usually fewer in number, more intelligent, have deeper connections with each other, each individual is more important to the health of the ecosystem, etc. I think they deserve greater protection, unless another animal species is threatened/endangered.
I appreciate the concerns that bureacracy sometimes only serves to perpetuate itself but that is only part of the picture. Otherwise people wouldn't devote so much of their own time and energy into it.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 13, 2010 - 03:19pm PT
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2010 - 03:40pm PT
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Greg,
Thanks for your input. Chief implied that you are one of the "raptor research folks", is that true? You obviously know a lot about peregrines and closures. You bring up reasonable points, and I appreciate the non-inflammatory tone. I'd like you to get in touch with our park ornithologist, and start a dialogue with her. Email me directly at:
jesse_mcgahey@nps.gov,
and I will forward your email to her. It has been mentioned here several times that, "you (I am) are only a messenger.." This is actually not totally true. I may not be a wildlife biologist, but I work closely with all areas of resource management when it comes to climbing impacts. I don’t mind if that gives folks more reason to throw the blunt of their criticism directly at me.
Yesterday I was talking with the park ornithologist about this thread. Quite frankly she was shocked at the crass comments and insensitivity about the way some climbers see the value of peregrines nesting in their native habitat. This is only the third time since 1995 that we will conduct a thorough survey of peregrine eyries. The surveys actually benefit climbers by ways you alluded to. When we are monitoring the nests frequently we can open closed areas immediately if an eyrie is confirmed as unoccupied. If we are not monitoring the eyries, the park, wishing to err on the side of caution in favor of the native wildlife, will continue to issue blanket closure.
This year we worked together to establish the extent of the NA area closure. The closure duration is shorter than it was in the 80s and 90s, the width of the closure is smaller than before (Aurora and Tangerine Trip are now not included), and we are allowing climbing on the first 4 pitches of the routes.
The knee jerk reaction of some in Yosemite management is, "Jeez, if this is the way climbers are going to treat us when we are reducing the extent of closures why should we continue to make concessions." I continuously remind management that the few loud voices on Supertopo are not representative of the wider climbing community.
Here is an example to illustrate how the perception of the “selfish entitled” climber can impact the rest of us. A few years (2006) ago when at a Camp 4 National Historic Registry dedication ceremony a few climbers taunted the Chief Ranger and Superintendent as they spoke. Their speeches were celebrating the history of climbing in Yosemite and the significance of Camp 4 in that history, and could have been a moment for climbers to use the positive momentum in their favor. At the time I felt like I was really close to getting a modest change to the stay limits at Camp 4. After the incident the conversation was over.
To be continued,
Jesse
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JesseM
Social climber
Yosemite
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2010 - 03:58pm PT
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Greg, you seem willing to have a respectful dialogue with the NPS and other land managers. You also indicate that you appreciate and understand the need for land managers to establish regulations to protect wildlife and wild values, while maintaining access. It would be constructive for other here to follow your lead.
I would bet many of the protected areas around the country that are not doing a good job managing closures in favor of less restrictions don't have the funding for surveys. This is an area where the Access Fund or other climbing interest groups should get involved to help.
Yosemite has not received base funding (from congress) for peregrine surveys. This year, as I mentioned before, the entire survey is paid for through the Jeff Maurer Memorial fund that his family has set aside to continue some of the work he dedicated his life to.
One reason Jeff indicated for the August 1st "arbitrary" end of closure date--it lowers the risk of climbers violating closure(with active and occupied eyries) if they have a hard date to follow. As this thread has clearly indicated, many climbers think they know better than the wildlife biologists about peregrine nesting. If the end of he closure was indicated by language such as "when the chicks have fledged and have left the eyrie," many climbers would use that to their advantage to begin climbing in an area when they thought it was appropriate. By giving climbers a scheduled opening date we give them a consistent expectation.
Like I said, as long as we are monitoring nesting areas, we will revise closures when justified. This year I can almost guarantee that some of the listed closed areas will be found not to have active peregrine nesting, and we will open those areas. On the flip side we might find other nesting areas that weren't included in the original closure, such as the El Capitan eyrie.
Please feel free to email me anytime, I'm open for a phone call as well.
jesse_mcgahey@nps.gov
209.372.0360
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 13, 2010 - 04:26pm PT
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While there are valid arguments on both sides of the issue, there's really no way of resolving the difference of opinions without potentially affecting the birds. Given that the NPS management is oriented toward resource and wildlife protection, I'm grateful that they have given climbers the considerations Jesse listed below and that we have a diplomatic intermediary between the climbing community and the NPS Brass. Thanks for hanging in the middle of a controversial situation with grace bro.
Jesse wrote
...in this case we have opened up at least 2 previously closed routes from the old El Cap closures (Native Sun, and Tangerine Trip). We have also allowed for climbing the first 4 pitches of any route. This means you could actually start climbing some of these routes a couple days before the end of the closure if you take it slow :) This is based on hours of observations, and we agree that the Trip and Native Sun seem to be too far away. ...
PEace
karl
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R.B.
climber
..
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Apr 13, 2010 - 09:56pm PT
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Jesse,
I just wanted to say that my previous comments about the closure comes from my past-experiences of frustration of climbing areas being closed because of public land use managers over-reaching.
I speak for myself, but I know that I speak for the climbing community as well, that no climber intentionally wants to adversely impact even a "SPECIES OF CONCERN" such as the Peregrin.
I feel the closures would be reasonable, if based on constant monitoring of the nest and lifting the regs when indicated.
It is really hard to determine the "Tone" of an email or post .. and I think sometimes, we all misread the intent of something someone may post when they have a legitimate question or comment.
I wanted to give you Kudos for stepping up to the plate and reaching out the public. This is part of the process that often is left out of the govt. decision making process. Thank SuperTaco for giving the opportunity for the public forum to give input.
For future reference, public process and hearings are often required under the National Environmental Policy Act or even at the State Enviromental Policy Act (NEPA and SEPA) before a Government agency can proceed forward with a certain study or programmed capital projects. I say this out of WAY experience.
So once again. Thank you for reaching out to the public and being able to take the flak when it came your way.
Sincerely, RB
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Apr 13, 2010 - 10:22pm PT
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Your tone wasn't misread by anyone dude.
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greg orton
climber
Southwest Oregon
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Apr 14, 2010 - 03:17am PT
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Jesse,
No, I'm not a bio, just another climber. I actually think we met once in Colorado. Thank you for providing the opportunity for a direct link.
I understand the frustration one feels at reading public opinion. But, I feel these open forums are a great way for climbers and managers to air their frustrations and maybe come away with new understanding. It is often easier to absorb another perspective when reading it without feeling the need to respond. For the most part climbing is one of the few remaining self-managed sports, as it should be. A key element to this self-management is open peer dialog which occurs regardless of one's experience level or ability to articulate. Jesse, I appreciate your ability to hang in there and remain objective.
Chief, your suggestion that it would surely be nice if all the Raptor research folks nationwide, could all come together and design/standardize a Closure Protocol for any Raptor Closure throughout the nation is greatly needed and being discussed. The current standards for managing Peregrine were developed in the '80s and '90s when the Peregrine were starting to make their comeback from DDT exposure and an unchallenged willingness to error towards over protection was at its greatest. The need for such a review in my opinion has never been greater. The more obvious the recovery becomes the less the funding to monitor and manage them will be and the fewer experienced objective biologist there will be. On top of this, States are already beginning to issue take permits to Falconers. This in itself is not a problem except that the easiest eyries to access are the ones that are being foraged and some of our climbing areas are being affected. In my view, climbers will and should play a key role in helping to maintain active Peregrine populations in our climbing areas.
Chief, you also had the insight to compair differnces between Peregrine and ravens. Raven obviously have learned to use humans to their advantage. A study in Spain (if I remember correctly, sorry I can't find my copy) several years ago looked at areas with Peregrine and Ravens on the same cliff and found a 50% reduction in fleglings. They also looked at the monitoring results from eyries without ravens that had unrestricted year around climbing where they also felt they were seeing a 50% reduction in fleglings. Then they looked at eyries were there were both ravens and unrestricted climbing and they saw a 100% reduction in fleglings, persumably because ravens had learned to wait until climbers distracted the adults to raid the nest. This report also enforced in me the need to maintain a reasonable closure until the young have fledged.
Great pictures, Fet!
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 14, 2010 - 02:00pm PT
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Nature will adapt to the constant changing surrounding forces, in it's own fashion without our help.
We humans can not accept that we can not control that mechanism. We think that we can, but in fact, we never will. We are just another organism within this infinite Universe of chaos.
If you are talking about natural processes I agree with you to a point (we can still have impact in some instances). But we aren't talking about natural processes, we are talking about human caused impacts. We aren't just another organism we are the only organism that is entirely capable of wiping out most life on Earth (e.g. from a global nuclear war) and we are probably the organism that can cause the most rapid change to any environment. With our technology and huge numbers we are a force like no other. And as spiderman's dad says with great power comes great responsibility. We are smart enough to determine where our actions are causing harm, and hopefully we are compassionate enough and appreciate the natural world enough to change our actions to reduce or eliminate our harmful actions, and that may sometimes require some sacrifice.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 14, 2010 - 02:04pm PT
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This is just the final stage of Affirmative Action for the birds, who can't be expected to immediately adapt to humans having put a big poison in their reproductive chain. When it's clear they are really well established, they won't need this and can adapt. For now, giving them the space to make sure they are OK isn't such a sacrifice,
Peace
Karl
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Apr 14, 2010 - 10:08pm PT
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R.B.- "In 1978 the first successful nest site was recorded after 36 years by rock climbers on El Cap."
I believe this was an ascent of the North American Wall by Dave Bircheff et al. Dave suffered frostbite to his feet and i was privileged to do a little climbing with him during his recuperation! I believe he mentioned something to that effect...Werner would probably know.
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TripL7
Trad climber
san diego
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Apr 14, 2010 - 10:26pm PT
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Karl- "For now giving them the space..."
I agree with Karl!
Furthermore, much like the Monarch Butterfly, which migrates thousands of miles from Canada, across the USA and the Sonoran Desert to a small grove of trees in the Serra Madre Mts. in Southern Mex.
Or perhaps the Pacific Salmon which migrate from thousands of miles out in the Pacific, back to the same river and specific tributary(among hundreds)to spawn. As do the Steelhead trout etc.
Personally i believe they were led there, but that is outside of this debate.
Regardless, i believe it would be a noble sacrifice, to climb elsewhere, tell more is known to support one side or the other!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Apr 19, 2010 - 12:21pm PT
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I am all in favour of giving the nesting birds all the room they need. But do they really need so much room?
El Capitan is enormous, and it is unfathomable to me that climbers on Pacific Ocean Wall or Iron Hawk could in any way disturb nesting birds on the NA Wall route, which is so far away.
How was such a wide swath of wall deemed to be off-limits to climbers? Could the width of this exclusionary zone please be re-examined?
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Double D
climber
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Apr 19, 2010 - 12:46pm PT
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Jessie asked: I am curious, who were the original climbers to notice the active peregrine nest in 1978? Are they on this forum?
That would be Sea of Dreams. We came very close to the nest, hence the name Perigrine Pillar. Within a week or so we were called into a closed door meeting with some folks from Washington DC and Kurt (last name???) an ornithologist from Yale I believe. Anyway the park service presented the data and Kurt backed up the behavioral tendencies of the birds to abandon nests that had too much human exposure (sometimes like 30-40 minutes). There were some other issues that were discussed that we were sworn to secrecy on but the bottom line was they asked us to stand behind the decision for seasonal closures and talk to the climbing community about it, which we were happy to do.
I worked with Kurt on several occasions as a climber stealing eggs and replacing fake ones. He’s a fascinating guy and I was blown away at his knowledge of these magnificent birds.
I am a bit puzzled about other closures though, as they seem to be very indiscriminate and not based at all upon the birds actual hatching sites. We have an area of 40-60’ cliffs here in So UT (Black Rocks) that gets closed and not only have I never seen the birds right there but I’ve never seen them nest on such small cliffs with an abundance of higher cliffs in the immediate area. It seems as though there’s been a bit of license taken. Also hearing about castle rock closures…seems odd.
Dave Diegelman
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