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Banquo
Trad climber
Morgan Hill, CA
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Mar 28, 2010 - 12:20pm PT
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I found this reference:
Delk, J. L. (1980) High risk sports as indirect self-destructive behaviour. In N. L. Farberow (Ed.), The many faces of suicide. New York: McGraw-Hill. Pp.393-409
But haven't read it.
Growing up, my dad was a field topographer for USGS and we moved usually twice a year, sometimes four times a year. We survey kids struggled a lot and hated the first day at new schools every few months. Our support group was small, maybe a sibling or two, your folks and the other survey kids. Since different families got different assignments, we weren't even always with the same survey kids. Once in awhile I look up a few of these survey kids and today they are a bunch of shivering, paranoid recluses as far as I can tell. Seriously, they are weirded out people now. I have never successfully reconnected with any of them, even the one that was my best friend through grade school and middle school.
One day in 7th grade I walked home from school with my best friend and fellow survey kid Jerry. My “house” (I grew up in a 700 square foot trailer) was on the way to the duplex where his family rented so we stopped at the trailer first. My mom was very distressed and sent Jerry off to the grade school to get his little sister. After Jerry left, mom told my brother and me that Jerry's brother had shot himself at home. She didn't want his mother to come home to the scene before it had been cleaned up and she wanted to stay at the trailer to be there when Jerry and his sister got back. Since there wasn’t anybody else to do it, my brother and I were sent to clean up. He had shot himself in the mouth and it was a f*#king mess.
Suicide by anyone had never really entered my conscious mind before but I decided then that it was something that I would never do because it was too cruel to all the survivors. I’m 53 now and I really haven’t had any other close suicides but there have been a few friends of friends and one parent of a friend of my kid. I have always come to the same conclusion. It creates more suffering than it cures. It seems very selfish.
I think that if suicidal people are climbing with a death wish, they are hoping that the exposure to risk will result in an accident. It’s like the story of the depressed guy sitting by a lake with a buddy. He tells his friend he’s depressed and thinking of killing himself. His friend, who is twice as big, grabs him, runs into the lake and pushes him under. The little guy fights like a wildcat to survive and comes up sputtering anger about his friend trying to kill him. Climbing is like that, when your feet start to pedal on a gritty slab and your fingertips tear on a tiny edge, you fight to hang on. Climbing is more about survival.
Postscript -
Suicidal people don’t make rational decisions and the decision to try and go through with it is certainly not rational. If you feel depressed or in any way self destructive, get help before you make a wrong decision. I think any of us or even anyone would help if they knew how and had the training. Suicidal people are fighting the blackest and loneliest fight there is and can’t win it alone.
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Lost Arrow
Trad climber
The North Ridge of the San Fernando
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Mar 29, 2010 - 12:56am PT
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Still here, and plan to be.
My female boss talked to me about my depression on Fri and made me feel much better. At least I will get a good reference if I get laid off next month.
Juan
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flyingkiwi1
Trad climber
Seattle WA
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Mar 29, 2010 - 02:06am PT
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Every now and then I read something that strikes me as the pure, straight, humble truth. I'm absolutely not intending to disparage any other posts by comparison but, Banquo, that was a dam fine post.
Ian
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slevin
Trad climber
New York, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2010 - 02:34am PT
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Still here, and plan to be.
Yeah, stick around! Lot's of stuff left to do around here!
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Banquo
Trad climber
Morgan Hill, CA
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Mar 29, 2010 - 11:07am PT
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Thanks Ian - it's as honest as I can make it.
Hang in there everybody, there are good days and triumph ahead.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Why is suicide such a big problem in our tribe, and how can we stop it?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Why is suicide such a big problem in our tribe, and how can we stop it?
Peter Haan wrote:
I started climbing 47 years ago. Of the thousands of climbers I have known, I seem to only be able to count three or so actual suicides. (Hemmings, Dolt, Yablonsky, Wiggins) Hardly a run on suicides here, I would have to say. I really doubt there is much of a significant correlation to be found here. Rate of suicide for 1999 in the general population in the US is .01% (1.3% of total deaths are from suicide). There is of course the associated fact that suicide attempts may be as many 8-25 for every successful one.
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quietpartner
Trad climber
Moantannah
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Reading psychological studies makes me want to commit suicide. ;^)
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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I would suggest there is a correlation, with a different twist. Think of it as a form of self medication, most of us would agree climbing is theraputic. It's not the risk in itself that draws those with depression but rather the theraputic value optained from it. Endorphin's are a neurochemical that relieve's the negative symtoms of depression. We all can suffer from situational depression, a strained relationship, frustration at work or just listening to the news! How often have you simply put your shoes on and started climbing or taken a long run to soon find yourself relieved?
An old friend who I first started climbing with in 1965, stayed active all his life until he finally ended it several years ago. In retrospect he chronically suffered from depression and self medicated all those years with exercise and unfortunately also with alcohol and drugs. It wasnt the risk he was attracted to but rather the therapy he gained from it. I only wish I could have seen it and got him to seek professional help for his acute condition, such is life in the rear view mirror.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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you gotta do what you gotta do.
no amount of analysis or hypnosis or rigamortis will change your destiny's horizon.
self medicate. exercise. swallow risk whole. shift reality. lie on your back. stand up and run.
one's entire pursuit is to perpetuate the blink. as long as the brink will have you.
i have life confused with something more glorious, like sex. its just life and nothing worth a tizzy. i fumble it and drop it and drink it and live it and f*#k it. someday i'll die it, too.
for now i try to plant my feet where i think they'll not slip. so far so good. im an accomplished liver, with a compromised liver. i merely speculate on my next breath, and dream about dancing shoes.
ta ta i'll twirl off into the horizon with a ribbon and a bow, to this tune:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4WzPyGhLw8&feature=related
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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^^^well said Chuck, you are wise beyond your age! Let's have that beer for life.
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Johnny K.
climber
Southern,California
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Feb 27, 2011 - 12:06am PT
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slevin
She, in fact, came up with a theory that "rock climbing and mountaineering is a channel for self-destructive behavior for highly driven people".
ha.Our theory is,she is a gumby social city slicker who doesnt know how precious the mountains are to people like us.
Rock climbing,mountaineering,alpinism etc etc is a form of meditation and self enlightenment in mother nature so to speak.It could not be any further than self-destructive.
You tell her she can blow that theory up her arse.Tell her to enjoy life and stop trying to dissect things in life she will never understand.
There are more emo kids committing suicide in one month because their iphones lost service,than you can add up in a whole society of climbers in a lifetime.
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LuckyPink
climber
the last bivy
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Feb 27, 2011 - 02:47am PT
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maybe climbers and mountaineers don't fear death as much as others.
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Rolfr
Sport climber
North Vancouver BC
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Feb 27, 2011 - 03:17am PT
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I call bullsh#t.
I take risks in business and in climbing, you can’t pick the fruit if you don’t go out on the limb.
I think climbers have more in common with entrepreneurs than people who commit suicide. Look at some of the famous climbers who have turned their accomplishments on the rock into successful businesses.
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Feb 27, 2011 - 09:43am PT
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Rock climbing,mountaineering,alpinism etc etc is a form of meditation and self enlightenment in mother nature so to speak.It could not be any further than self-destructive.
followed by
You tell her she can blow that theory up her arse.
Hmmmm. How is that meditation and enlightenment thing working out for you? :-)
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Brandon-
climber
Done With Tobacco
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Feb 27, 2011 - 03:31pm PT
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Climbing makes me happy, not feeling like I'm taunting death.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Feb 27, 2011 - 03:50pm PT
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OP
Seems to be the same as saying "You're crazy" for doing what you do.
Same can be said of smoking.
Same can be said of self-mutilation (aka tattooing, piercing)
Same can be said of many other things I cannot come up with right now...
Motorcycle racing, race car driving, skydiving, base jumping... and on, and on.
Fact is, there are so many people out there who climb, and don't end up dead by their own hands.
The fact that every once n a while there is an offing does not make the numbers skew all that much. Like any other activity, people can "get into it" one day, and after the first climb be done with it. Then there are those who take up the activity as a passion for a short while, the weekend warrior, so to speak, then drop it when they find out taking it to the next level is going to take some amount of concentration. Then there are the ones who start, learn fast, take off, and burn out for any number of reasons, but they stop. Then there are those who have the rest of their lives to spend with friends, make new friends, and the like.... think of that 80 yr old dude... he knows what I'm taking about.
If all these people are taken as a whole, the rate of the suicide wouldn't be much more than the general population (though, we may never really know for sure the exact numbers because there is no getting a number on exactly how many people climbing, or exactly how many people make up the general population.
I disagree with you psychiatrist friend.
She may be taking the long winded way of saying "you're gonna die!!!"
cheers
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Feb 27, 2011 - 03:53pm PT
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some are. some aren't. the latter should stick around awhile in case things change.
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matlinb
Trad climber
Albuquerque
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Feb 27, 2011 - 04:25pm PT
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Pretty sure climbing saved me.
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