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guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Mar 22, 2010 - 01:18pm PT
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Ken M. please you can't be serious. You forgot some.... us army corps of engineers, Immigration dept, Forest service, department of education, DEA, US Park service.
Just give this thing a few years to really come into focus.
So you believe, trust nancy pelosi?
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Mar 22, 2010 - 01:18pm PT
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"When the community makes a decision that costs me money, the community (that's you or whomever else I am talking to) has taken a positive step that has injured me." I'm not sure I followed that, but in regard to "Now, what happens to positive and negative rights when we decide we do not want to drive past people dying alongside the road," the answer is we have moved from the Jeffersonian model to a New Deal model. Is that good or bad? The only point I've argued here is that it IS a new point of view.
So while this likely doesn't affect me all that much, I can see how it is important to millions of people
You don't think a trillion dollar tax over the next decade is going to affect the recovery and growth of the most fragile economy since the early 1980's if not the Great Depression?
Edit: Regarding driving past the dying, society didn't first start helping the dying with FDR. FDR is where such things started to become the official function of the Federal government.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Mar 22, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
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dirtbag- The great redistribution is not from the rich to the poor but from the health care consumer to the health care system which is why the next step needs to be addressing the costs of health care, something which the bill begins to do indirectly with the medicare task force but does not address head on.
Guyman: Socialism is not "we take from some and give to others bottom line" that's absurd. By that rationale all government is socialist, regardless of how it works. According to the chart printed above you must be an excellent climber because you aren't making a lot of sense.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 22, 2010 - 01:24pm PT
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Gunsmoke:
MB1's discussion of positive and negative rights is well worth reading. You should take a look at it.
May I ask? How do you come down on the new view?
I am sure you have a take on it.
Return Edit:
So you propose to leave this function to the insurance companies?
The companies who cancel policies when a claim is made?
If they are your friends you need to tell them they have shot themselves in the foot.
When making big profits you have to stay a little covert.
Use a little disguise here and there.
HDDJ:
"Socialism" was designed for use a trigger word. When you want the obedient mob to reach reflexively for their weapons, you say "socialism."
Has been quite effective.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Mar 22, 2010 - 01:24pm PT
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In any case, the question is not "is this socialist or not" the real question is "does it WORK or not?" People have done such a good job demonizing buzz words that everyone gets caught up in the labels instead of paying attention to the details. If we renamed blowjobs "The Socialist" I swear half of you guys would refuse to date any girl that gave them.
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Mar 22, 2010 - 01:24pm PT
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Guyman: Socialism is not "we take from some and give to others bottom line" that's absurd. By that rationale all government is socialist
???
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Binks
Social climber
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Mar 22, 2010 - 01:26pm PT
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Just remember repubs. "If you aren't with us, YOU'RE with the TERRORISTS".
LOL...
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Mar 22, 2010 - 01:29pm PT
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"Ken M. please you can't be serious. You forgot some.... us army corps of engineers, Immigration dept, Forest service, department of education, DEA, US Park service.
Just give this thing a few years to really come into focus.
So you believe, trust nancy pelosi?"
Hey, I had the Forest service and Park service in there!
Fact is, I trust the Republicans. However, they have been placed into a position of survival, which trumps, for many, over the public good. They have staked out positions designed to stop or weaken President Obama at any cost, as they see themselves fading to obscurity if he won Health Care, but them resurging, if they could defeat it.
Simple politics.
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Mar 22, 2010 - 01:33pm PT
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jstan, This may not be a sufficient reply, but I think that liberal and conservative thinkers seek for the same end more than they realize. They just have different views of what will achieve that end. Anytime you get tens or hundreds of millions of people together, you will find wrong and evil, good choices and bad. So while America has a long list of wrong acts and behaviors, on the whole we have done more good for more people and provided more comforts to the average citizen than any other nation I can name. It wasn't Europe that saved us in the last two World Wars. It wasn't Europe that funded the rebuilding after WW II. So I'd say the proof is in the pudding. The American experiment was a success. As we go to a European approach, I think we will get a European result, which I think is less desirable.
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jstan
climber
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Mar 22, 2010 - 01:35pm PT
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Got you Jeff!
Health care is all about survival of the UNfittest.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Mar 22, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
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There were many who disputed the racist nature of opposition to President Obama and his positions, however, it is hard to understand otherwise, when black democrat Congressmen are accosted by crowds who shout at them "nigger".
http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20100320/pl_mcclatchy/3457015
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dirtbag
climber
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Mar 22, 2010 - 01:40pm PT
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dirtbag- The great redistribution is not from the rich to the poor but from the health care consumer to the health care system which is why the next step needs to be addressing the costs of health care, something which the bill begins to do indirectly with the medicare task force but does not address head on.
Bingo!
Gunsmoke: no,it won't affect me much directly, I don't think, at least in the foreseeable future anyway. And the contribution to the deficit should be nil because of the taxes imposed .
So, how is this socialism?
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jstan
climber
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Mar 22, 2010 - 01:43pm PT
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GS:
You have hit a sore point. We here today have no business whatsoever taking credit for the accomplishments of the people at Tarawa, Coral Sea, Iwo Jima, Nanking, Stalingrad, or Bastogne. None.
As a kid I watched flights of B-17's headed for England. I am ashamed because of what is happening here today.
You say there are other ways to keep people from having to die beside the road. Speak up. What are they.
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dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
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Mar 22, 2010 - 01:43pm PT
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Socialism is not simply about “redistribution of wealth.”
One of the defining characteristics of socialism there is no private ownership and, most importantly, there is no private claim on profits of an enterprise. This healthcare bill does not eliminate private ownership or profits. No business is being nationalized.
Read the business headlines today. The stock prices of health insurance companies are going up.
Any one of us is free to purchase this stock. Any one of us can risk our capital for an opportunity to participate in the profits. That is the very definition of capitalism.
The economics of healthcare has always been a mix of models. Many large hospitals are non-profit organizations (similar to, but not quite socialistic). They have been this way for decades. Other components are for-profit (private doctors, HMOs, insurance companies, etc.) Many people get healthcare directly from the government (active military, veterans, congressmen) – these components are actually pretty close to socialism.
This legislation does not give us “European style” healthcare. There really is no comparison for what we will have – it is very unique, for better or worse. Probably the best comparison is that that healthcare will now be more like the defense industry. It is a heavily regulated industry of private, for-profit, institutions. So if one wants to call our healthcare socialism, then they will also need to accept that our military-industrial complex is also socialism. But it’s not that simple.
Since I can purchase stock in both Lockheed Martin and Aetna, I’m pretty sure we still have a fundamentally capitalist economy.
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dirtbag
climber
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Mar 22, 2010 - 01:45pm PT
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Good post dktem.
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Mar 22, 2010 - 01:48pm PT
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Gunsmoke: no,it won't affect me much directly, I don't think, at least in the foreseeable future anyway. And the contribution to the deficit should be nil because of the taxes imposed .
Say what? I asked, do you think that taxing the [wealthy others] a trillion dollars will have a negative effect on the fragile economy in which you live [, thereby having a negative effect on you]? For the record, the CBO projects that the legislation passed yesterday will raise more in taxes then it spends on health care.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 22, 2010 - 01:52pm PT
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More stories about Izzy and 'socialism' please FatTrad. Wasn't the modern state of Israel founded by socialists, deriving inspiration in many cases from the US founding parents? Isn't the state of Israel largely dependent on handouts (socialism) from the US government and private organizations and individuals? Isn't health care there largely delivered on the single-payer system?
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dirtbag
climber
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Mar 22, 2010 - 01:54pm PT
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Say what? I asked, do you think that taxing the [wealthy others] a trillion dollars will have a negative effect on the fragile economy in which you live [, thereby having a negative effect on you]? For the record, the CBO projects that the legislation passed yesterday will raise more in taxes then it spends on health care.
A trillion over ten years.
No, I don't think a 2.5% tax rate on upper income earners, taxes on tanning salons, and a few other places will be a big deal. Especially when balanced with the bill's benefits.
It's a much more responsible idea than say, starting a multi-trillion dollar multi-year war on false pretenses while lowering taxes.
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guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Mar 22, 2010 - 02:01pm PT
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DJ.... LOL good point.
Sorry I have a hard time writing exactly as I mean so things get lost in translation.
I mean all governments force us to pay money to them.
How much we pay and where it goes are some of the defining features of a government system.
My beliefs are this: We do need a government, because we all need the benefits of large cooperative organizations so we can achieve things that would be imposable without it. Examples are: The US Military, The Post Office the building of Dams and Power systems, road systems, sewer systems etc.
I also happen to think that Health Care for all citizens and visitors is a right and one of the just duties of government.
Our government takes to much $$$ from us and wastes it on all sorts of stuff. I think all ST members would agree on that.
I think this Bill and the way it it was presented and passed was/is wrong and we will not be to happy with it when we start using our new system - in like 6 years. But then it will be to late to do anything.
I live by some pretty black n white "rules" in my life and I distrust some folks like: used car salesmen, stockbrokers, financial advisers, and politicians. People who wish to reach into my pockets mostly.
And let me end the rant by asking this cliche:
"How do you boil a frog?"
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C-dog
Social climber
from under your favorite rock
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Mar 22, 2010 - 02:03pm PT
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I'm waiting to hear a coherent "take" on what Jefferson was (actually, speaking) about.
Hey, madbolter1, Jefferson fought against the money establishment run by James Madison. Madison's speech writer John Jay said that the purpose of government is to protect the rich people's money from everyone else.
Since the rich are in no way a majority (by definition) they have duped a bunch of Republican wannabes into believing that the Reps are the people's party. tee hee.
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