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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Mar 23, 2010 - 12:15am PT
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re;Reddirt's news post....Angus Thuermer posts occasionally on ST as Anguish
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willie!!!!!
Trad climber
99827
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Mar 23, 2010 - 12:21am PT
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I heard a really interesting show on the local radio a while back.
It was about how the SE AK natives respected everything they had to kill to survive.
That photo sucks.
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willie!!!!!
Trad climber
99827
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Mar 23, 2010 - 12:31am PT
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Dude, I just think the photo sucks. Not an occasion I'd pose for.
If lives were in danger, so be it.
If not, she AND her photo suck.
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reddirt
climber
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Mar 23, 2010 - 12:32am PT
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Not sure if I am sissy but I have cervically dislocated hundreds of animals in my lifetime, intentionally. Or intentionally stopped their hearts by other means.
Sometimes I have essentially tortured them prior to their executions. Sometimes I brought them to the end prematurely.
I have killed more sentient beings in my lifetime than most other humans, at least on the taco.
I have to live with this knowlege.
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reddirt
climber
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Mar 23, 2010 - 12:38am PT
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Humans kill clean and neat.
not always... whether the killee is human or nonhuman.
could be worse.
I'd rather shoot a wolf like that woman in the pix than do experiments on beagles & chimps only to euthanize upon reaching the "end" of a "protocol".
Happens by the thousands... happens everyday.
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reddirt
climber
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Mar 23, 2010 - 12:41am PT
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oh yeah, I forgot to mention experience w/ captive bolts. It was not my show. Horses. School of Veterinary Medicine. No I'm not a vet. Just a witness.
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reddirt
climber
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Mar 23, 2010 - 12:53am PT
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It is usually through the lungs, and you have to sit back and let it die in a few minutes or so. Then you roll it on its back. You carefully cut through the hide from the as#@&%e to the ribs. Then you carefully cut the outside lining of the gutsack. Then you carefully reach around and cut the organs loose from the back and yank the whole pile out. The bladder takes a little care if you bother with it. Then you cut out the lungs and heart, which are seperated by the diaphram muscle. Then you reach as far up the neck as you can and cut the trachea and throat from the inside.
At this point, if you were smart enough to take your shirt off, you are covered with blood to the elbows if you are good. To the armpits if you aren't so good. You have steam coming off of the animal and your arms.
there's some children's book I read where the kid protagonist does this & crawls inside the carcass for warmth... prolly a Gary Paulsen book.
Every meat-eater should witness where their carne comes from.
If I still lived in a rural area I'd prolly have a gun in the car at all times... in the event of collision.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Mar 23, 2010 - 01:09am PT
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"And that picture. I haven't seen a wolf that fat and with that short of legs. Not that I am saying people don't kill things, hold them up and get their picture taken smiling, but it looks shopped to me."
I don't believe the photo has been altered. I have several other photos of the woman with the animal. All look quite real.
I felt posting one view was enough.
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reddirt
climber
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Mar 23, 2010 - 01:32am PT
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wolves don't suck as an entire species any more than Homo sapien sapiens.
what ultimately sucks is imbalance, be it encroaching wolves or sprawl.
where I (& many people) live there is severe deer overpopulation. And gun control. and densely habitating humans.
death isn't always so bad. life isn't always so good.
balance is everything... and everything is dynamic, constantly changing.
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reddirt
climber
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Mar 23, 2010 - 01:44am PT
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stray bullets + wooded but urban high population density area = disaster
deer contraception also = disaster, albeit less.
equilibrium & balance, not reaction.
edit: teacher was from PA
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reddirt
climber
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Mar 23, 2010 - 02:07am PT
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You think WOLVES are going to help you get rid of the urban deer you claim you are having trouble with?
huh??
I don't think anyone said or implied that
You must think I am PLENTY stupid, or a...
no, just kinda reactionary
You can fix deer in city parks without risking humans with long range bullets.
yes, but can consensus be reached to take such action?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Mar 23, 2010 - 02:09am PT
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Vermont, like Idaho, is right next door to Canada. There is no biogeoclimatic difference between northern Idaho and southern B.C., and northern Vermont and southern Quebec. Just an arbitrary human line, which is utterly meaningless to wildlife. Historically there was exactly the same species of wolf on both sides, with adaptation to local habitats as needed. It's fantasy to believe otherwise, including that map that someone posted some time ago that purported to show that there was an entirely different sub-species of wolf on the US side of the border in the west - with the political border essentially as the border between the sub-species. And I have no doubt that the wolves in southeast BC, and southern Quebec, don't give a crap for Homeland Security, and cross the border as they want to visit their southern relatives. And vice-versa.
I can believe that the wolves in Idaho may have tended to be a bit smaller and scrawnier, due solely to habitat differences. Not as much to eat.
what a complete screwup it is to release wolves onto rangeland And, conversely, to release cattle and sheep into lands inhabited by wild animals.
RJ, you're a blind believer, as irrational as the local religious and Republican nuts. Presumably as a hater of the federal government, you'd agree that it should stop subsidizing uneconomical enterprises. What about subsidized rangeland for ranchers, and indeed the subsidies that keep Idaho as a whole afloat? Shouldn't they be ended? (And a lot of other ones.)
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Mar 23, 2010 - 02:46am PT
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Anders, all subspecies of the Grey Wolf are members of the same species, Canis Lupus. A map of North American subspecies can be found here:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cd/Original_distribution_of_wolf_subspecies.GIF
(Clicking on the map will enlarge it)
I believe that most all wolf taxonomists distinguish canis lupus nubilus which were native to Idaho, as a separate subspecies from the transplanted subspecies canis lupus occidentalis.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Mar 23, 2010 - 02:51am PT
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This guy was looking at me awfully hungry like. so I shared my sandwich with him.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Mar 23, 2010 - 04:49am PT
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Do you know if that's a Canis Lupus Baileyi(Mexican Wolf) or a Great Plains (Nubilus)wolf?
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Mar 23, 2010 - 04:50am PT
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Canis Lupus Occidentalis is the subspecies transplanted from western Canada to Yellowstone and into Idaho wilderness areas.
There is a combination of traits that are generally used to determine one subspecies from another. Variations in behavior, skeletal features and pelage have been applied to distinguish among subspecies.
E. Raymond Hall and K. R. Kelson, in 1959, recognized 24 subspecies of North American wolf. Several taxonomists disagreed, using other assorted classification systems. Mech, in 1970, commenting on the problems with the current wolf taxonomy, wrote that there were "probably far too many sub specific designations . . . in use." It wasn't until Hall's publication in 1981 that the taxonomic division of Canis lupus into 24 subspecies became the single, most widely accepted classification system of North American wolves.
Hall's taxonomy of gray wolves is still widely accepted today. But Ronald M. Nowak and Nick E. Federoff (1996) challenge it, narrowing the subspecies from 24 to five: arctos, lycoan, nubilus, baileyi, and occidentalis. Scientific inquiry has progressed from pelage, skeletal features, and behavior to include statistical analyses of cranial morphology and studies of mitochondrial and nuclear DNA. Nowak and Federoff cite various studies focusing on genetic evidence that indicate to some researchers that "there may be even fewer identifiable kinds of gray wolf". Presently, both Hall's and Nowak and Federoff's classifications are widely accepted.
Nowak, Ronald M. 1995. Another look at wolf taxonomy. In Carbyn, L. N., S. H. Fritts, and D. R. Seip. Ecology and Conservation of Wolves in a Changing World.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 23, 2010 - 10:35am PT
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Cut to the absolute bottom line, and amplify what Rokjox has stated:
All wealth comes from the Earth. Be it the food we grow, the minerals we mine, the oil that we pump. When the process of farming, ranching, mining, etc. is disrupted by any outside influence, we all feel it. Whether directly by a wolf kill of a beloved animal or a solitary hiker being killed by a predator, that wolf has GOTTA DIE!
In Wyoming: first it was the Grizzly Bear that gained federal protection. Then wolves were reintroduced. The Jackson/Gros Ventre elk herd has diminished drastically. As a result, the Wyoming G & F has permanently closed the Dubois Game Check station due to far fewer hunters and fewer elk being harvested in the entire area. As a further result, the local economy has diminished. There used to be 3 game processors in Dubois--take the animal there and have it cut up, put into the politically correct "little white packages" that don't offend, frozen, etc. These places employed 4-5 people each. Lots of ranchers would work there in hunting season to supplement their ranch incomes. The wolves have just about finished off some of those ranch families from the economic impact.
In 1993 I went on a moose hunt in the upper Gros Ventre range as a "support person" for an elderly couple who I had known and hunted with for many years. Madge S. had finally drawn a moose license after waiting 42 years, and was really excited about finally being able to hunt one, even at the age of 71. On the evening of the first day, she shot an animal just at dusk; Tony S. and I field dressed the animal and rolled it belly down in the snow, covered it with branches, and put a stinky piece of clothing over the top of the kill (this usually discourages coyotes and other animals from the human scent given off). We then drove back to our camp to get the horses and pack saddles, but darkness overtook us, so we went out next morning at first light to bring home the big cow moose. The whole damned animal had been eaten except for the neck, and it had been pissed on by whatever had eaten the carcass. Tony and I were on horseback, and both well-armed, but the horses were really skittish and nervous. There was NOTHING TO SALVAGE. We simply rode back to the horse trailer MT handed; Madge was in tears after waiting 42 years to have her ONE chance destroyed by out of control bear/wolf populations. We reported the incident to the local fish& chips warden (Wyo. G & F) who said she could reapply in 5 years since she had drawn a license. I had to physically restrain Tony from beating the $hit out of him (note: even at 72, Tony could have done it--an ex Golden Gloves middleweight boxer in his younger days). I haven't ever gone back to the Gros Ventres. Too dangerous for the potential rewards.
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taorock
Trad climber
Okanogan, WA
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Mar 23, 2010 - 11:30am PT
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Brokedown,
All wealth comes from the Earth. Be it the food we grow, the minerals we mine, the oil that we pump.
I can't agree. I think most wealth comes from the human imagination. the material of which you speak certainly supports us, but it is the ideas that move it around efficiently and even conceive of how to use it that makes your use of the word "all" a little too much to take.
For instance, take a gold mine. Gold's main value is in its beauty and uniqueness. We give it value with our imagination and people make livings off of it. Taking this notion a little further, say it is a Bonanza deposit. A miner without imagination will mine it without any thought to building infrastructure and increasing efficiency. When the high values are mined the mine is dead. The more imaginative will increase efficiencies and mine lower and lower values.
Another example is the amount of material that formerly went into communication (such as copper lines, switching gear, etc.). Microchips have certainly reduced use of material and increased demand for invention and innovation.
tao
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 23, 2010 - 12:59pm PT
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Taorock-
I disagree, in a manner of speaking. Without the resources that I mentioned, man's imagination and creativity would have no outlet. Man can sit there and be "creative" but without materials to mold into something that is the "creation?" You have introduced a chicken-egg dichotomy into the discussion.
Without iron ore there would be no steel.
Without petroleum there would be no automobiles, airplanes, motorcycles, tractors and combines, etc.
Without fertile soil, there would be no crops.
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reddirt
climber
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Mar 23, 2010 - 01:17pm PT
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There is a mexican gray trapped in the zoo surrounded by the woods I mentioned previously. Well cared for but has the roaming footprint/area the size of my house... maybe yard.
I think about it all the time & it keeps me from going there. Maybe it's just bored but maybe it's lost it's place/identity.
edit:
^^^
w/o death there's no enriched soil
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