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David Wilson
climber
CA
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Jan 29, 2010 - 11:20pm PT
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"Saturdays and holidays averaged 840 visitors per day. On peak days, visitor numbers were estimated at 1100 to 1200.....four hundred permits will be issued per day, 300 of these will be Day Use Permits and 100 will be included in wilderness permits"
So, the number of people is cut down to between a third and a half of current use. How was this arrived at, a 50 page report analyzing the safety of the cables? Do we now have LEO's up on the shoulder enforcing this new ordinance?
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cleo
Social climber
Berkeley, CA
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Jan 29, 2010 - 11:21pm PT
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If anything, having a permit for TODAY AND TODAY ONLY will encourage MORE
people to try and summit in bad weather.
Jesse, has anyone suggested tripling the number of 2x4 footboards? I think that would improve safety dramatically, and I'm pretty sure people would speed up with more boards.
(I know of people who will not budge from one stance until the next one, 20' away, is completely clear).
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David Wilson
climber
CA
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Jan 29, 2010 - 11:42pm PT
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as a logical extension to the half dome permits, should we consider permits for use of tenaya lake. i think that's in the 800 people per day use range and there must be water quality issues that arise from such a high use......
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David Wilson
climber
CA
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Jan 29, 2010 - 11:48pm PT
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also, if we do those half dome permits, we should consider clouds rest. that may have only 200 people per day but certainly has a dicey summit ridge/trail.....and then there's cathedral peak. it has a lot of crowds on the south face mid summer and could definitely use an individual permit for say, $1.75 per climb.....what do you think the price should be?
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David Wilson
climber
CA
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Jan 30, 2010 - 12:06am PT
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"During this interim program, visitor use and impacts to the park will be monitored. Yosemite National Park Rangers will be studying visitor use and safety, assessing the visitor experience, and compiling data that will be analyzed by park managers"
instead of the above, what i think you ( the NPS ) need to do is hang another set of cables, just left of the existing and the same width ( about 36" = compact ) , that clearly provide the round trip descent cables and eliminate the congestion that's a result of "passing" issues. then you let those people go up without some contrived permit process....
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10b4me
Ice climber
Ice Caves at the Sads
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Jan 30, 2010 - 01:28am PT
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I think it's a good idea.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jan 30, 2010 - 01:47am PT
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Jessse huge thanks for providing the info!!! First I heard about it.
To Yosemite Policy Makers:
1. the policy does not address safety, it creates a ticketing system to push the demand to different days, nothing more. In effect following the law of supply and demand, charge money when the demand is highest. Typical exploitation. The cables are dangerous and "hikers" shouldn't do them. It is essentially a poor attempt to be a Via Ferrata. I've got a sh#t load of years under my belt and those things scare me.
2. making credit cards a requirement to permits is discrimination against the poor, and for those that have lost their credit due to health care issues, possibly discriminatory against those with disabilities. (not all disabilities prevent hiking or climbing in the first place)
3. the wilderness is not safe, and this issue is an issue made by NPS itself. I'm not necessarily advocating the removal, but if safety is the real concern, then there are other alternatives. At least one alternative is to create multiple 'safe' ladders. Some for up and some for down. Don't make slippery granite with cables and boards and poles some raison d'etre for an entire permitting process with year after year overhead costs that will only go up.
4. to instigate this program out of the blue WITHOUT an in place ready to go feedback mechanism is irresponsible in the internet age. Just like any internet fool, I have an opinion, and this thread will be lost to time and not reach anyone of decision making authority, yes?
edit - removed irritated tone side whine
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Jan 30, 2010 - 02:28am PT
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THREE THINGS:
1) Jesse doesn't deserve anyone's flack
2) Anyone going to YV in Summer, especially on a weekend or holiday, deserves what they get. The place is a zoo, a nightmare, a monument to overpopulation as much as natural beauty or anything else, and they do have to do SOMETHING about it, if not a limit, than what?
3) If the NPS was worthy of people's trust in general, if it generally acted honorably, and was without some fairly blatant instances of conflict of interest in selling out the interests of public users for the interests of those seeking financial gain, maybe most everyone would have more faith in them.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
Sprocketville
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Jan 30, 2010 - 03:02am PT
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this should have been done a long time ago.
when somebody tumbles, you have a whole gaggle of freaked out people.
when a climber falls, we just bury them in the dirt, and go drink beer.
maybe 1 or 2 post traumatic victims at most.
half dome gets 1000 freaked out kids, not good PR for the park.
sell 100 more permits than you want people, no shows taken care of.
extra cables means more work for the rangers, impact statements,
could take 20 years to get more cables, the way california is.
the permit process will weed out the undesirables, to a point.
now you can put a waiver at the bottom of the permit:
Caution: You Are Going To Die!
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sarabina
Social climber
CA
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Jan 30, 2010 - 03:53am PT
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Thanks to JesseM for the news...and for following through with everyone's questions as best you could.
I never post up but MAN...Today is a Sad Day in Yosemite.
Shouldn't happen.
This is opening the flood gates...
Restrictions on all trails...
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David Wilson
climber
CA
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Jan 30, 2010 - 10:13am PT
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well said munge....
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tinker b
climber
the commonwealth
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Jan 30, 2010 - 10:29am PT
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jesse if you need a helmet to be on supertopo, think of the body armour the poor tool at subdome is going to need to turn back the irate folks. that poor tool should get hazard pay for that job...
i kinda like the dangerous mass of humanity heading up there. some people really push themselves to get to the top of halfdome. it is amazing to see the humanity making the pilgrimage.
i was just in disney world last week (don't ask) and being amongst the throngs of people i began to understand that these people are used to crowds and it probably dosn't bother them as much as the wilderness lovers i hang with. so if they want to wait two hours at the cables and potentially get bowling balled, i say have at it.
the permit sytem will most affect the lower class and mexicans who do not get on the internet six months before their trip to plan and hear about the whole permit system. dispite the fact that it is likely their water bottles that i keep picking up under the cables during the face lift, i love seeing the families in flip flops and t-shirts heading up the cables. they are truly bad ass.
i think the permit sucks, but at least we won't need one midweek.
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gunsmoke
Trad climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Jan 30, 2010 - 12:27pm PT
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"If the NPS was worthy of people's trust in general, if it generally acted honorably ..."
I suspect that this new restriction is no more about safety than the closing of 1/3 of the Valley's campgrounds after the Flood of 1997 was about flooding. It's about too many people walking and pooping in the backcountry. Is 1,000 HD trail users a day ok? What about 10,000? What about 100,000? At some point we have to conclude that limits must be set. The problem is that when the environmental impact report is made and the scoping period is over, we're going to find that the "right" number should be about 100. So enjoy the ability to freely hike Half Dome any weekday you want this summer, because pretty soon the difficulties of getting a highly limited permit will be too much hassle to be worth the effort. And if you've never done Snake Dike, this is your year before the conga line winds all the way back to Lost Lake.
Won't it be ironic when HD sees more rappelling deaths than we currently see from hiking deaths.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jan 30, 2010 - 12:38pm PT
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To Yosemite Policy Makers:
1. the policy does not address safety, it creates a ticketing system to push the demand to different days, nothing more. In effect following the law of supply and demand, charge money when the demand is highest. Typical exploitation. The cables are dangerous and "hikers" shouldn't do them. It is essentially a poor attempt to be a Via Ferrata. I've got a sh#t load of years under my belt and those things scare me.
2. making credit cards a requirement to permits is discrimination against the poor, and for those that have lost their credit due to health care issues, possibly discriminatory against those with disabilities. (not all disabilities prevent hiking or climbing in the first place)
3. the wilderness is not safe, and this issue is an issue made by NPS itself. I'm not necessarily advocating the removal, but if safety is the real concern, then there are other alternatives. At least one alternative is to create multiple 'safe' ladders. Some for up and some for down. Don't make slippery granite with cables and boards and poles some raison d'etre for an entire permitting process with year after year overhead costs that will only go up.
4. to instigate this program out of the blue WITHOUT an in place ready to go feedback mechanism is irresponsible in the internet age. Just like any internet fool, I have an opinion, and this thread will be lost to time and not reach anyone of decision making authority, yes?
-Good job Munge. With a few tweaks, this language should get high-lighted during the scoping.
-Props to Tinkerb for pointing out what the NPS won't: The new regs are going to fall hardest on the newer Valley user groups, i.e., working and lower-middle class Asians and Latinos from the Valley who don't have the time/money, and tech-savvy of the average SF Subie driver to log permits ahead of time. (It is especially unfortunate that the SC, WS, and NPS all finally agree that the crowds are getting out of hand, and the "wilderness experience" degraded, just as ethnics start to become visible as a user group.)
-Gunsmoke's complaints are on the money.
-Props to Jesse for putting his face on this in the ST, knowing that he'd be getting a warm and fuzzy welcome. Of course, that's why the NPS pays him the big money.
heh
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bmacd
Trad climber
Beautiful British Columbia
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Jan 30, 2010 - 12:45pm PT
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Looks like NPS got their answers, only question remaining is will they listen and implement the real solution ?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 30, 2010 - 01:02pm PT
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As the Sierra Club put up the cables in much like their present form in the 1920s or 1930s, it would be interesting to hear its take on the situation. Or at least fun to watch them wriggle.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Jan 30, 2010 - 01:21pm PT
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Sounds like the Sierra Club has become a victim of its own success.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jan 30, 2010 - 01:57pm PT
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It's really an interesting problem and one that points out the messy problems wrought by democracy. Over the last fifty years too much input has resulted in an inertia in the park that has resulted in too little long term planning and too little anticipation of increased use.
Follow the demise of the "Master Plan" and you'll see what I mean.
Making folks pay to go on a hike is nothing if not distasteful; it just seems wrong.
If not, I suppose there are basically two choices: somehow increase access or take the cables down.
Back in the days of MCI there was a proposal to put a cable car to the top of HD. Perhaps a cable car and a restaurant...?
Just maybe the present cables should go the way of the firefall.
If it were up to me the cables would be removed as an alternative to ticketing and safety controls.
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