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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Dec 19, 2009 - 05:31pm PT
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Is it me or does it seem odd that some people interpret "promote the general welfare" to mean making other people pay for it and/or face fines and possible jail sentences?
We pay for you to be safe. We pay for police and fire and roads. I say disband the military and let Canada invade. I'm tired of paying for something that does me no good and is costing more and more each year.
Considering how bankrupt we are, who would want to invade?
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Nate Ricklin
climber
San Diego
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Dec 19, 2009 - 06:42pm PT
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1. What's wrong with socialism? sorry, SOCIALISM... if you put it in all caps it seems scarier.
2. who cares what's written in the constitution? let's fix healthcare anyway.
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apogee
climber
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Dec 19, 2009 - 07:04pm PT
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apogee
climber
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Dec 19, 2009 - 07:12pm PT
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Oh, don't be fooled, skippy boy- both parties are equally complicit in the 'Gov't Motors' buyout (bye-bye Saab), AIG bailout, bank bailout, and on and on...
The only difference is which party can make the most people think the other one is at fault. To that extent, if we take the bait, we are all silly, intellectually lazy sheep.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 19, 2009 - 07:36pm PT
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 19, 2009 - 07:38pm PT
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Percentage of men and women who survived a cancer five years after diagnosis:
U.S. 65%
England 46%
Canada 42%
Percentage of patients diagnosed with diabetes who received treatment within six months:
U.S. 93%
England 15%
Canada 43%
Percentage of seniors needing hip replacement who received it within six months:
U.S. 90%
England 15%
Canada 43%
Percentage referred to a medical specialist who see one within one month:
U.S. 77%
England 40%
Canada 43%
Number of MRI scanners (a prime diagnostic tool) per million people:
U.S. 71
England 14
Canada 18
Percentage of seniors (65+), with low income, who say they are in "excellent health":
U.S. 12%
England 2%
Canada 6%
"The elderly Americans must learn to accept the inconveniences of old age."
Sen. Harry Reid
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apogee
climber
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Dec 19, 2009 - 08:25pm PT
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You know, every once in a while you post something that I actually strongly agree with, TGT (in this case the cartoon above).
Looks like the Dems have their 60 votes for their POS bill:
http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/19/the-jersey-in-ben-nelsons-locker-no-60/
Nelson's in the bag- besides refining the language in the bill regarding restricting abortion coverage, Nebraska gets a bunch of sweet perks. Ain't politics grand?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 19, 2009 - 09:57pm PT
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TGT, you don't cite your references for your statistics (convenient, because it allows you to just make it up.), they are wrong.
We physicians know that we do nowhere near that good with treatment of diabetes, for example.
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/27/3/694.abstract
"Of the patients who received medication treatment, less than one-third were at goal"
I'm sure that all those statistics are as BS as the diabetes one.
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rotten johnny
Social climber
mammoth lakes, ca
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Dec 19, 2009 - 10:00pm PT
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skipt and fattrad....i agree with you that economic justice is the same as socialism....i would also assertain that invading iraq based upon fabricated intelligence so that haliburton and other well connected businesses could line their pockets is the same form of socialism.....some refer to it as corporate welfare .....i was forced to pay for a socially immoral endeavor that i feel was a monumental waste of lives , time , and money... i'd would rather see my taxes go to improving americans quality of life thru healthcare rather than warfare.......
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rotten johnny
Social climber
mammoth lakes, ca
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Dec 19, 2009 - 10:04pm PT
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hey TGT....i know they don't matter or count but did i miss the number of americans that died from lack of health care insurance on your chart ....? nice tahquitz write up by the way....
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Dec 19, 2009 - 10:18pm PT
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The stats from the Investor's Business Daily that TGT uses without attribution would mean a lot more if they stipulated "of those covered".
If the stats for England and Canada are for everyone, what are the stats for those in the U.S. that don't have gold-plated insurance or are denied coverage or are driven bankrupt?
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rotten johnny
Social climber
mammoth lakes, ca
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Dec 19, 2009 - 10:31pm PT
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mitch mc connell IS a lying moron but he can't help it...... he's from kentcuky...... but he has a great ass!
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Dec 19, 2009 - 10:42pm PT
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http://www.businessinsider.com/health-insures-caught-paying-facebook-users-virtual-currency-to-send-letters-to-congress-opposing-reform-bill-2009-12
Insurance companies bribed people to oppose health care on Facebook.
I think Skipt is right though. We should stick with our current system where costs rise ten times faster than income while people don't get any healthier and millions of employed working people can't even afford (or aren't allowed to get) coverage. That is clearly solid ground.
TGT- Source your numbers because the reality is that all of those places actually have BETTER OUTCOMES for LESS MONEY than the United States. If you have a heart attack in the US you can get into a cardiac cath lab basically instantly assuming you live in a relateively urban area. Turns out that a lot of the stuff they do in those labs don't actually reduce future heart attacks. In England it's much harder to get into a cardiac cath lab....and yet they still have fewer heart attack deaths than we do. Basically we are blowing an asston of money on sh#t that makes us feel like we are doing something, but in reality are just running up costs and creating more risks for patients. Read the Dartmouth Atlas for some more interesting information like that.
Why are you all so desperate to save a broken system that wastes money?
*edit*
Oh god TGT I just realized that all the solutions you suggest in your glib comic are for ailments that you are alleging in your unattributed data that the US does a "better" job addressing. Gotta love the irony.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Dec 19, 2009 - 11:30pm PT
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TGT posted:
Number of MRI scanners (a prime diagnostic tool) per million people:
U.S. 71
England 14
Canada 18
So it's "a prime diagnostic tool" which shows our system's superiority?
I thought you repubs would say this higher number is a symptom of expensive defensive medicine and supports an argument for tort reform; which is it???
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
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Dec 19, 2009 - 11:40pm PT
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I've searched for the source of TGT's stats he posted above.
There are a bunch of right-wing sites [e.g. http://www.myclaysun.com/node/6736, http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2406620/posts ] that say, "according to a recent Investor's Business Daily article . . . " and then go on to cite the same stats that TGT pasted. But none of the sites I looked at included a link to the purported article, and I could turn up no article at the IBD site itself.
TGT is a dupe or a shill or both . . .
. . . just like all the other right-wing, sound-bite parroting drones.
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apogee
climber
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Dec 20, 2009 - 12:46am PT
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"As a society, we simply cannot tie insurance to employment, as we typically do."
Lois, you believe this, and you support the idea of a PO/single payer system. I know that you still consider yourself a Repub, but you do realize that this is enough to have you ridden out on a rail by the GOP as a 'RINO', don't you?
Don't get me wrong- I'm right there with you- I just find it interesting (and heartening).
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jstan
climber
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Dec 20, 2009 - 12:50am PT
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"The fear of bankruptcy is why we (my husband and I) take a high deductible insurance health care policy if we are between jobs. You just cannot risk a major illness or injury with the cost of health care. It can easily wipe you out. This is one reason why I favor reform and it is one area where Obama is absolutely correct. The man is on the right track here."
You sometimes wonder how humans are able to form societies at all. If I were to look for the single critical element I think it might be our ability to disagree on some things so completely, and then immediately turn around and agree so completely on another subject.
That is why it is so important that every person come to each issue out of their own thinking.
When we begin to accept common lines of thinking, everywhere we look we shall see
only ruin.
Edit:
Seems clear this is the basis for Jefferson's concept of education for all.
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apogee
climber
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Dec 20, 2009 - 01:53am PT
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"You simply cannot let partisan affiliation get in the way of doing what is right. Sometimes you have to break from the party line in the interest of the public good."
Yeah, I agree, but I just wish Obama had shown more clear direction in this critically important issue. His strategy of allowing Congress to craft the plan (in a supposed bi-partisan gesture), which resulted in no clear, discernible plan that could be communicated clearly to the public to generate buy in, resulted in the Repugs running wild with it, and the public opinion cratered because of it.
I would have much preferred that Obama had stepped forward in mid-March with a clear plan (preferably with a PO/single payer option & away from the employer-obligated system), and pushed it through hard and fast. He had the political momentum and public opinion at that time, and in spite of his apparent preference to gain bi-partisan action (which is completely and utterly hopeless with the fanatical Repugs), it would have likely resulted in something closer to what the country really needs, instead of the sh*thole bill that is likely to be approved.
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Dodo
Trad climber
Spain/UK
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Dec 20, 2009 - 07:26am PT
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Far from the moaning lots of rich people do about it the UK National Health Service is the best legislation that the UK government ever instituted. It keeps health bills for everyone at a reasonable level, rich people can still join reasonably priced private schemes PURELY because the NHS forces them to keep their charges at a sensible level just by being there.
If you can't afford PHI, or you trust the NHS (and 99% of Brits do) and would rather take your kids on a holiday, seems right to me. What would probably gall republicans is that we extend our health care to anyone in the country, even if they are visiting Americans, for free. They don't have to even pay the NI temporarily during their stay.
Now I think that is a good thing for a country to do, but then again, I'm not a rich republican.
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