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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Dec 18, 2009 - 06:23pm PT
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Since some of you are experts just like Jesse, I am sure that you have already read the reports from NIST, on the collapse (here).
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/factsheet/wtc_qa_082108.html
That is the boneheaded version (for the rest of us).
I only have two engineering degrees and certainly do not claim to be a structure or fire expert so I doubt I have the same qualifications as Rox and Klimmer. But I do manage 3/5ths of the nations largest construction project (Building a Plant that is not just a high rise but must also meet Nuclear Std's) where we have applied lessons learned from the WTC incident into our design.
My point is that at least on the building collapse, it was rigourously studied and investigated by industry and academic experts.
I have never found that any of those experts reach conclusions supporting conspiracy. If it were that simple, our engineers could have simply reached the conclusion that you dont set off charges in the structure. Would have saved us taxpayers a hell of a lot of money on my current project....
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 18, 2009 - 06:25pm PT
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Almost 3,000 innocents died on September 11th, 2001, in the four airplanes that crashed, in the World Trade Centre, and the Pentagon. It is might have beens now, but it appears that the US government had at least general warning of a threat. The 9/11 commission investigation also might have been more thorough. The US and the world will long be paying the price of the clumsy and mistaken over-reaction to the attacks.
That said, the overwhelming body of evidence has shown, far beyond a reasonable doubt, what happened. It takes magical thinking to an absurd new level to believe that (at most) minor unexplained details or discrepancies "prove" anything but that no story is perfect. Looking at it another way, it is unbelievable that a conspiracy so monstrous as alleged by klimmer et al could occur, given the numbers of people involved, the time frame (30+ years), and all the circumstances. The government, especially the Bush-Cheney administration, is undoubtedly capable of lying and worse. But even they would not have dared such a conspiracy - knowing that the price of failure would be a treason trial and execution.
The fantastic conspiracy theories are also utterly disrespectful to the families and friends of those who died, and their memory.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Dec 18, 2009 - 06:34pm PT
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I agree Anders.
regardless,
HAPPY HOLIDAYS!
be careful Klimmer, that dude who dresses in red and white and is jovial may place a dangerous package under the tree. But hey, I now realize that this whole conspiracy theory stuff comes naturally to all of us!
**
THE SANTA CLAUS CONSPIRACY**
For years now, they've lied to us. But now the biggest conspiracy since
the incorporation of Yule into Christianity has been uncovered: There is no
Santa Claus. Who wasn't told this absurd lie? For many, it was even by
their parents! And who is behind this conspiracy? The C.I.A., the K.G.B.
or perhaps Mr. Macy? Was is an attempt by the Freemasons to boost their
power with lies? The research department of that renown scientific journal
SPY magazine (January 1990) has calculated and come to the shocking
result: there is no Santa Claus!
1) No known species of reindeer can fly. BUT there are 300,000 species of
living organisms yet to be classified, and while most of these are insects
and germs, this does not COMPLETELY rule out flying reindeer which only Santa
has ever seen.
2) There are 2 billion children (persons under 18) in the world.
BUT since Santa doesn't (appear) to handle the Muslim, Hindu, Jewish and
Buddhist children, that reduces the workload to 15% of the total - 378
million according to Population Reference Bureau. At an average (census)
rate of 3.5 children per household, that's 91.8 million homes. One presumes
there's at least one good child in each.
3) Santa has 31 hours of Christmas to work with, thanks to the different
time zones and the rotation of the earth, assuming he travels east to west
(which seems logical). This works out to 822.6 visits per second.
This is to say that for each Christian household with good children, Santa
has 1/1000th of a second to park, hop out of the sleigh, jump down the
chimney, fill the stockings, distribute the remaining presents under the
tree, eat whatever snacks have been left, get back up the chimney, get back
into the sleigh and move on to the next house. Assuming that each of these
91.8 million stops are evenly distributed around the earth (which, of course,
we know to be false but for the purposes of our calculations we will accept),
we are now talking about .78 miles per household, a total trip of 75-1/2
million miles, not counting stops to do what most of us must do at least once
every 31 hours.
This means that Santa's sleigh is moving at 650 miles per second, 3,000
times the speed of sound. For purposes of comparison, the fastest man-made
vehicle on earth, the Ulysses space probe, moves at a poky 27.4 miles per
second - a conventional reindeer can run, tops, 15 miles per hour.
4) The payload on the sleigh adds another interesting element. Assuming
that each child gets nothing more than a medium-sized lego set (2 pounds),
the sleigh is carrying 321,300 tons, not counting Santa, who is invariably
described as overweight. On land, conventional reindeer can pull no more
than 300 pounds. Even granting that "flying reindeer" (see point #1) could
pull TEN TIMES the normal amount, we cannot do the job with eight, or even
nine. We need 214,200 reindeer. This increases the payload - not even
counting the weight of the sleigh - to 353,430 tons. Again, for
comparison - this is four times the weight of the Queen Elizabeth.
5) 353,000 tons traveling at 650 miles per second creates enormous air
resistance - this will heat the reindeer up in the same fashion as
spacecraft re-entering the earth's atmosphere. The lead pair of reindeer
will absorb 14.3 QUINTILLION joules of energy. Per second. Each. In short,
they will burst into flame almost instantaneously, exposing the reindeer
behind them, and create deafening sonic booms in their wake.
The entire reindeer team will be vaporized within 4.26 thousandths of a
second. Santa, meanwhile, will be subjected to centrifugal forces 17,500.06
times greater than gravity. A 250-pound Santa (which seems ludicrously slim)
would be pinned to the back of his sleigh by 4,315,015 pounds of force.
In conclusion - If Santa ever DID deliver presents on Christmas Eve, he's dead now.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 18, 2009 - 06:35pm PT
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Damn, Anders,
what a buzzkill you are.
I mean, REALLY, I was just going to make some more popcorn for another Riot Of The Nutcases.
They were getting all worked up, it looked like there were going to be rutting snafflehounds and everything!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 18, 2009 - 06:36pm PT
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Yeah, and then there's that "guy" in the bunny suit. As for the Tooth Fairy - well, the name pretty much says it all. The conspiracy by the so-called grown-ups isn't pretty.
And a happy (belated) Hannukah to Ron!
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 18, 2009 - 06:41pm PT
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You guys sound just like hard core bureaucratic govt. tools.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 18, 2009 - 06:51pm PT
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Yeah Werner,
you got me.
I'm a cleverly infiltrated govt. tool.
Yup. Thats it. My cover is now blown.
:(
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 18, 2009 - 06:54pm PT
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I wouldn't know - I don't work for the government.
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Dec 18, 2009 - 06:55pm PT
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Werner, dont know about the Tool, deal, but yes, guilty as charged - Government Bureaucrat...paid to infiltrate ST on our message of change!
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dec 18, 2009 - 07:18pm PT
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Remember guys and gals,
In science we invalidate hypotheses. That is how science works. The OCT has been invalidated countless times from many different approaches: physical evidence, I witness evidence, Means-Motive-Opportunity evidence the list goes on and on.
It did not happen as the 9-11 Commission Report said it did.
We need a new completely Independant International 9-11 Truth Commission. We do not know the complete truth of 9-11.
So why do you all continue carrying water and working to prop up the OCT? Why? The so-called official facts have been proven invalid. So get over it. Stop with the personal insults and attacks. Stop kicking against knowing the truth.
We need a new real investigation into 9-11.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 18, 2009 - 07:32pm PT
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Now that Klimmer is on the case Tiger Woods has disappeared.
Coincidence???
I think not!
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 18, 2009 - 07:32pm PT
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NIST ADMITS TOTAL COLLAPSE OF TWIN TOWERS UNEXPLAINABLE
The National Institute for Standards and Technology has been forced to admit that the total free-fall collapse of the twin towers cannot be explained after an exhaustive scientific study, implicitly acknowledging that controlled demolition is the only means by which the buildings could have come down.
In August 2006, NIST promised to scientifically evaluate whether explosive devices could have contributed to the 47-story building's collapse but no answers have been forthcoming.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 18, 2009 - 07:45pm PT
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Werner: Please cite source. (Preferably National Institute for Standards and Technology.) Please also show that organization's bona fides - is it a legitimate and credible professional/scientific organization? Is its comment within its area of expertise?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 18, 2009 - 07:49pm PT
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You do it.
You guys are just jack asses always trying cite bullsh'it onto people.
DO THE FUKING WORK before you all spout off with all your bullsh'it!
Do it. Don't be lazy. You might even learn something about yourselves.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 18, 2009 - 07:53pm PT
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And I thought jack asses could only sight bullsh'it.
Werner you should locate Woods.
DO THE FUKING WORK before you spout of with all your bullsh'it.
Do it. Don't be lazy. You might even learn something!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 18, 2009 - 08:26pm PT
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NIST NCSTAR 1-5: Reconstruction of the Fires in the World Trade Center Towers
The collapses of the World Trade Center towers on September 11, 2001, resulted from a combination of aircraft impact damage and the ensuing fires. This report documents:
The information obtained on the factors that affected the nature, duration, and location of the fires and how this was obtained;
The development and validation of the fire model used to simulate the fires;
Descriptions of the most likely fires, as they were reconstructed; and
The modeling and validation of the heat transfer from the fires to the buildings’ structural
members.
November 2008. With links to nine reports. http://wtc.nist.gov/NCSTAR1/NCSTAR1-5index.htm
NIST's World Trade Center investigation: http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/safety.htm
NIST's WTC site: http://wtc.nist.gov/
NIST Status Update on World Trade Center 7 Investigation (June 2007)
NIST's investigation of WTC 7 includes an extremely complex analysis that incorporates detailed information about the building's structure and construction, as well as data about fires, damage sustained from falling WTC 1 debris and other technical factors to determine its probable collapse sequence.
The NIST investigation team initially worked simultaneously on both the WTC towers and WTC 7 collapses. In June 2004, the team shifted to full-time study of the towers to develop needed simulation methods and other research tools and to expedite completion of the WTC towers report. Work resumed on the WTC 7 study in October 2005.
The current NIST working collapse hypothesis for WTC 7 is described in the June 2004 Progress Report on the Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster (Volume 1, page 17, as well as Appendix L), as follows:
An initial local failure occurred at the lower floors (below floor 13) of the building due to fire and/or debris induced structural damage of a critical column (the initiating event) which supported a large span floor bay with an area of about 2,000 square feet;
Vertical progression of the initial local failure occurred up to the east penthouse, as the large floor bays were unable to redistribute the loads, bringing down the interior structure below the east penthouse; and
Horizontal progression of the failure across the lower floors (in the region of floors 5 and 7, that were much thicker than the rest of the floors), triggered by damage due to the vertical failure, resulting in a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure.
This hypothesis may be supported or modified, or new hypotheses may be developed, through the course of the continuing investigation. NIST also is considering whether hypothetical blast events could have played a role in initiating the collapse. While NIST has found no evidence of a blast or controlled demolition event, NIST would like to determine the magnitude of hypothetical blast scenarios that could have led to the structural failure of one or more critical elements.
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/releases/wtc_062907.html
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 18, 2009 - 08:39pm PT
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The Final Report shows that NIST avoided physical testing altogether. Instead, it created a computer model that it claims supports their collapse theory, but won't even release that model for inspection by the public.
In the new Report, NIST quietly drops the theory promoted by since 2001 by the New York Times and FEMA, that diesel fuel was responsible for the collapse, and minimizes the role of purportedly extensive damage from the fallout of the North Tower.
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Srbphoto
Trad climber
Kennewick wa
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Dec 18, 2009 - 08:50pm PT
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Hey, I'm getting up. Anyone need another beer or more popcorn?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Dec 18, 2009 - 09:11pm PT
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Can anybody explain to my hopelessly simple and trusting mind how the secret government cabal managed to pre-place explosives right at the floors where the duped pilots managed to fly the planes into?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Dec 18, 2009 - 09:41pm PT
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I will try to find better resources later, but this is a good start . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Commission#Criticism
Criticism
Main article: Criticism of the 9/11 Commission
The commission was criticized for significant alleged conflicts of interest on the part of commissioners and staff.[11] Further, the commission's report has been the subject of much criticism by both the commissioners themselves and by others.[12][13]
The commission members were appointed by George W. Bush as well as Congress, which led to the criticism that it was not a commission truly independent from the U.S. government whose actions it was supposed to review. The commission stated in its report that "[their] aim has not been to assign individual blame," a judgment which some critics believed would obscure the facts of the matter in a nod to consensus politics.
In addition, commissioners believed that key agencies of the U.S. government, including The Pentagon, the FAA and NORAD were deliberately deceiving them,[13] and that the CIA was deliberately impeding the work of the commission.[14] On the whole, the chairmen of the commission believed the commission was set up to fail.[12].
Look up the cites in the article. This is the 9-11 Commission saying these criticisms themselves.
Like I said we need a completely new independant International 9-11 Truth Commission. 9-11 has not be properly investigated. We do not know the full truth.
If you stand against a new investigation then I say that says a great deal about who you are and what you represent. Do you stand for truth and justice, or do you stand for high crimes and treason?
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