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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:04pm PT
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Oh, the Apparition affair, still gives me chills thinking about it. I'd done the route several times
over the years, but on this occasion I had just guided El Condor (which used to be runout on
the 2nd pitch until a bolt was added). My client and I were coming back to the base of the route
to recover packs when I saw the guy on the ground below Apparition. I ran over to see what was
going on and found that the 5.8 leader had missed the bolt and fell 200'.
I gave CPR to no avail as he died of his injuries on the spot about an hour later and got a mouth full of blood in the process. About a year later I started having these crippy dreams, went and got tested for HIV, which
thankfully was negative. These days I carry a mouth shield !
Doug
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:37pm PT
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Up on east buttress of el cap last year, enjoying the 4th pitch (I think), cruising easy 5.6/5.7 terrain with poor pro. About 30 ft above my last nut, I hear a strange whistling sound getting closer and closer.... Whack! A 3 inch round stone hits me right on the shoulder. Right hand comes off and I barely catch myself. Would have hit the ledge from 60 plus feet up if I had fallen. Really close to taking the "unknown adventure" on that one. My heart races even as I write this!!!
Kalen
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Dec 14, 2009 - 12:54pm PT
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On a brighter note: I can vividly remember doing an early ascent of "You Asked For It" in Tuolumne.
I was leading all pitches, Ed Barry who had previously done the route was belaying.
2nd pitch has 10c knobs 35 above a ledge prior to the first bolt, head ups to say the least.
the last pitch has the 10b move 75 feet above the pro, a #3 friend in a hole. Good pro it was, the problem was the cracked knob I had to pull on to get to the anchors. I must have tried to get around the cracked knob for 20 minutes of going up and down, until I finally whimpered, " what the
hell was I thinking?" Ed offers up the answer, "YOU ASKED FOR IT"
Doug
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Brendan
Trad climber
Yosemite, CA
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Dec 14, 2009 - 01:03pm PT
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bhilden:
Lokk at all these shiny 3/8" ers!
Cool tale, I think I would rather just soloe that pitch than no-pro it.
Karl,
Nice storytelling, I swaer i was with you on that ledge for a minute.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Dec 14, 2009 - 01:27pm PT
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Why don't we rate everything but sport routes R? After all, you could get hurt if you fall in the wrong place on most every trad route.
The R and X ratings are more of a "heads up" advisory than an attempt to analyze every potential danger. If you are leading a 5.10c trad route, you should be solid enough that if a 5.7/8 section is run out, you are OK. Should such a route be given an "R"? I think not, but apparently the trend with some is otherwise.
The natural extension to what some here are advocating is: If a trad climb doesn't have almost sport-like protection (even if it is natural gear), it should be given an R rating.
The risk of giving R ratings to trad routes that don't protect like sport routes is to make an R (or X) rating meaningless. It also denies the inherent danger of most trad climbing -- you could get hurt or killed if you blow it in the wrong spot.
Perhaps this is the essence of RGold's original point.
At Josh routes are assigned R and X ratings as follows:
R Rating: If a route is poorly protected at the difficult sections,but not without some protection, it will be given an R rating. A fall on a R-rated route, at the wrong place, could result in a very long or serious fall that results in injury or death.
X Rating: If a climb is essentially unprotected at the difficult sections, and a fall would have severe or grave consequences (e.g.: hitting the deck is possible), it will be given an X rating. A fall from a route with an X rating could result in severe injury or death if the fall occurred in the wrong place.
Climbers are also cautioned that "a long or even deadly fall can occur on almost any route."
Which is, of course true. In fact, most long, severe and deadly falls occur on routes not considered R or X.
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Reeotch
Trad climber
Kayenta, AZ
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Dec 14, 2009 - 01:28pm PT
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Woah,
I'm getting sweaty palms . . .
A lot of friction routes listed here.
I'm especially fond of those pure friction sections, just palming and padding (or peddaling)
You really have to get in the "zone".
Two routes that got me into the friction-head-zone are:
The right side of Goodrich Pinnacle (5.9R), I did it in august when it was a bit warm. The crux for me was the pitch (#4 or #5) where you have to do about a 30' horizontal traverse on absolutely featureless rock. You just have to observe subtle differences in angle. It seemed barely doable with my sticky rubber. I wonder how it was for Robbins, who was probably wearing vibram soles on the FA.
Harlequin, on Saddle Rock in Josh. The crux (10d) is well protected on nice micro edges. Then comes the mental crux (10a) where the first bolt is some 50' out on very smooth rock. It is all about body position. You just look up at the bolt every once in a while to see if you are still on course.
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hooblie
climber
sounding out stuff , in the manner of crickets
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Dec 14, 2009 - 02:29pm PT
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Drilling suks, I'm here to climb, I can do these moves - I'm going for it.
i very much endorse the tone. how can that be given what i wrote upthread? i guess that's the dichotomy. it's an individual choice to view each fa as a personal skittery crossing ala an ascent of water ice, or at the other extreme, responsible park construction.
we didn't publish, rate, in some cases even name some fine routes down there that, lacking tri-cams, would be even wickeder.
what's my duty in that case... particularly since preserving adventure experience for posterity was a good part of the reason.
and yes local ethics plays into it, an impression had been made on my psyche a decade earlier.
my ear had downloaded "space babble" directly from the warbler's mouth. eeuw.
and now here he is, explainin' the plain and simple of it quite succinctly.
that's thanks to luck, and his just reward for never overloading his plate.
self knowledge, good form, worth emulating.
r/x seems somewhat of a perjorative term. for un...named, rated, reported stuff how about just a !
hovering out there? you know, the generic heads up
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Dec 14, 2009 - 02:40pm PT
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The idea that the reasoning is 'Making an ego statement' seems odd at the time of the ascent.
Declinging to add a bolt or provide permission after the fact may be the ego statement. In the moment of establishing I don't think I go "wow, people will respect me if I put up a run out"
usually it's like this
"wow, I'm scared shitless, where can I get gear"
or
"wow, this is awesome climbing, oh wow, I better get some gear in"
eh, maybe this thought process...
"wow, I don't want to be seen as a chicken so I better go a little further"
is it really ego? or is it also fear?
if fear, then it is similar to the above 'scared' reasonings no?
thots?
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Darryl Cramer
Social climber
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Dec 14, 2009 - 02:42pm PT
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Salmanizer! This thread has me thinking about a route I did on the Lower Buttress at the Leap back when I was still in college. (83/84/?) It ended up being the first .11 I lead cleanly and it was also pretty scary for me. I tried looking it up on Mountain Project and saw that you were the guy that posted the routes in the area. The route I climbed is either Black Pyre or Black Magic. I started off as a thin crack 60’ or so to a reach move left to a juggy dike. After the dike it was a low angle easy hand crack. The crazy thing is I was intending to do Blue Wind and yet I ended up on this route. I am guessing I was on Black Pyre since it was the easier of the two. Can you help me figure out which one I climbed? And of course I am bummed it doesn’t get at least a PG!
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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Dec 14, 2009 - 02:53pm PT
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hooblie,
The risk of the bold, boltless, and unreported lines is that in the not too distant future they will be bolted over by climbers unaware. As long as you don't mind, then all is ok, I suppose.
I really really admire the idea of preserving adventure and the unknown, but I've unfortunately seen the above scenario happen on more than one occasion (along with climbers knowingly bolting sport routes over old reported R/X routes). :(
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Dec 14, 2009 - 02:57pm PT
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Are either Michael F or Patrick K going to die when I again sic one of them on the first pitch of Boa, again?
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hooblie
climber
sounding out stuff , in the manner of crickets
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Dec 14, 2009 - 03:18pm PT
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munge, how about this angle. one of my "quirks" is being overly concerned with the idea "preserve your options." simply by continuing business as usual, climbing from the bottom up, we're providing pushback to the top down idea. yet we would like to leave a route as perfectly crafted as those guys can where the clips make sense based on inspection (and more) but in the heat of the moment, and lack of knowledge of what lies above, onsite ground-up ascents can yield something short of ideal.
if you can run it out, leaving the most possible options open, then you've got the ideal situation. i believe you've earned some say so in that way to apply knowledge gained to fashion the best outcome. ego statement has a proper place in balance with pressure or punishment. it's not the same ratio with respect to flat out peril, imho
edit: nate, i almost included that little caveat. it's the chance you take and it's an ego self check to keep a sense of humor about such things. when it's all said and done you got your slice of the pie, it's to your credit if they did too, and after all, the shadow knows!
blatant retro bolters (reported routes,) not so funny.
ok, i've out pontificated myself. i know who i am
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2009 - 03:21pm PT
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There are no FAs in sport climbing.
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richross
Trad climber
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Dec 14, 2009 - 03:22pm PT
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Rich Romano on easier turf but run out on a 5.11+ trad FA,late 80's.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Dec 14, 2009 - 03:27pm PT
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I am sorry, but even with $ in my pocket I am not liberal with bolts. Installing bolts are a cop out because the climber is not mentally strong enough to execute the moves or construct a sound belay without them. Hey, I fall into that weakness sometimes as well. Climbers in the last 20 years have given up on limits in installations of bolts and now just chuck them in whenever they want (esp with cordless drills).
Personally, I like it when I can do a 160' pitch with a limit of 6 bolts. Skinner made the rounds 25 years ago with a Czech climbing slide show that told of a 3 bolt/80' limit in Eastern Europe. I modified that to the rope lengths I shoot for. That (hopefully) includes clean placements or a fixed pin (which could lead after removal to a clean placement). I'll normally carry a pretty full (clean) rack to cover what comes up. Sometimes these are runout, sometimes the crux is only 10' above the gear, other times right at the gear. Who knows.
As for R/X, I am just doing the route for myself or repeating a route to "emulate" the first ascent.
I don't have any good R/X stories. They are too common to select one out.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
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Dec 14, 2009 - 05:02pm PT
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Flanders,
I was one of the guys that helped lift the stokes into the chopper.
A very sad day indeed.
Juan
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Dec 14, 2009 - 05:21pm PT
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There are no FAs in sport climbing. Maybe not near you, but around these parts plenty of sport routes were ground-up FAs (for instance about half the sport routes in Owens). That ranges along a full range of tactics, from mostly aid up to and including free-solo FAs that the FA later added bolts to. But definitely FAs.
But I agree with you on rap-bolted routes.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 14, 2009 - 05:31pm PT
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That ranges along a full range of tactics, from mostly aid up to and including free-solo FAs that the FA later added bolts to. But definitely FAs.
Free soloing and aiding are just that, that such routes are later retro'd doesn't mean they had a sport FA. If you are saying other routes were led ground up drilling from stances on lead then I'll agree with those - but how many of those that haven't been retro'd after the fact are considered sport routes today.
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Dec 14, 2009 - 05:34pm PT
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"Anybody out there done 'Crying Time Again?'"
"The first four or so pitches to the big ledge went without incident.
The last pitch was my lead and all I could see was a single bolt 20'
off the ledge with a white sling in it."
I bailed off of it and hope to finish it this year.
After the big ledge was a dead vertical wall and the bolts appeared
to be a old bolt ladder. I got about 10' past that which was probably
about 30' off the ledge. I saw a runner about another 40-50' up. The
book shows the route going right after 5-6 bolts off the ledge and then
way left again? Do you think I bailed from your question or Big Boys
Don't Cry?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Dec 14, 2009 - 06:28pm PT
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drilling from stances on lead Oh - so the Bachar-Yerian isn't a "valid" FA?
You lost this argument 30 years ago, no need to rehash it again. Plenty of ground-up routes with all original bolts are sport routes at Owens, Yosemite, Pinnacles, and elsewhere.
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