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chossman
climber
lone pine, ca
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I take some of the blame for the retro bolts. Alan Hirahara asked me if I thought it should be retro bolted. I said that was up to the first ascentionist, Vern Clevenger. I spoke to Vern who said, yeah, a few more could be added to make it safer. (Like right off the ground!?!). I relayed this info to Alan and admonished him to talk to Vern first. He did it with my blessing, but never did talk to Vern. The next time I saw Vern he had that hulking countenance. He was not happy. Too many bolts.
As it is, on the first pitch, Alan actually retro bolted a line I had worked on that had one bolt about fifty feet off the ground, left of the actual Hairaiser. The actual route Hairaiser Buttress traverses out to the center of the face to take advantage of some slung chickenheads. So they actually chopped a different route for the first pitch.
Chopping bolts is never justified unless it is done by or with the approval of the first ascensionist. Was it?
In its retro-bolted state, Hairaiser was hardly a sport climb. There were still 20 -30 foot run-outs and that scary opening move. It still was a hairariser any way you look at it.
I think you must weigh the bold achievements of a few against the greater good. It is a beautiful stretch of rock that is moderate in difficulty and has provided thousands with pure enjoyment in its retro bolted state. I am not for a bolt ladder on Hairraiser, but a relatively safe route (R not X) should be on that face to provide enjoyment for the masses.
But believe me, I think we should respect the history of the past. I am not for retro bolting the Bachar-Yerrian, but only because Medlicott has plenty of safe routes near that one. So if it was the only line up the face...would it be a candidate for retro bolting? You know what John and Dave's answer would be...NO!
If you want run-out, try Spuds Gurgling C*#k Holster on the dome left of Hairaiser. It was John Sherman's first ground up route with a Bosch. Better talk to Verm if you are thinking of retroing that one! (He's already told me No).
No retro unless the F.A says so;
And Stop! don't chop to be a cop
Don't have hostility,
Communication is the key
for climber harmony.
Chopping bolts. Pretty silly when you think about it..
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Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
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"I think you must weigh the bold achievements of a few against the greater good."
This is not my fight as I am not a local in your area, but where I do most of my climbing the bold achievements of a few set the standards for the rest. What is the greater good?
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webthor
Mountain climber
STL, MO
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"What is the greater good?"
Mystery and the unknown,
And there is "ONE" more .....
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chossman
climber
lone pine, ca
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The greater good...what is best for the climbing community as a whole. A consensus of opinion. Make it safe or preserve history? The first ascentionist is the best expert and influencer of that opinion since he/she can view the other issues that relate - how much traffic does it get, is it really that dangerous, do the retro-bolts make it a better route, etc. Would love to hear from Vern on this one...
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Is it being bold to deliberately bolt a new route to render it X?
I say "No"; it's an ego trip and irresponsible. When I led this route last year, I was concentrating to such a degree between the first two bolts that I didn't see the chickenhead. That's my fault. Is the CH still there? I was able to slot a micro at one point that might have stopped a fall.
When putting up a new route, it is the responsibility of the leader to bolt in a manner that will, if possible, not result in an X rating. If a route is put up X by choice, I have no problem with someone retro-bolting.
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PDHMAN
Trad climber
Eastside N of Bishop just S of 395
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Chossman wrote:The greater good...what is best for the climbing community as a whole. A consensus of opinion. Make it safe or preserve history? The first ascentionist is the best expert and influencer of that opinion since he/she can view the other issues that relate - how much traffic does it get, is it really that dangerous, do the retro-bolts make it a better route, etc. Would love to hear from Vern on this one
Ran into Vern at the Mammoth Post Office parking lot after the most recent chop job. His comment to me regarding HRB was, "I Fu*king wish I had nothing to ever do with that Fu*cking route!!!!!! I am so fu*king tired of all the bullsh*t it has created!!"
I smiled and replied back, "Imagine that?"
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Who are these self appointed: Guardians of the Greater Good?
What are the standards and who decides?
Is it lowest common denominator?
What happens when expectations change in 20 -40 years? [should more bolts be added or a few taken away?]
The whole idea sounds kinda fishy to me...
but, it would make a great route name.
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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"If a route is put up X by choice, I have no problem with someone retro-bolting."
Bachar-Yerian in the Meadows.
Perilous Journey and Krystal Klyr in Eldo.
Thimble in the Dakota Needles.
The Edge, and Turbo-Flange at Tahquitz.
Some routes are monuments to the improbably, incredibly possible. Retro-bolting these routes is akin to melting down the Statue of Liberty to make copper wire to plug in your television for some evening entertainment.
"Is it being bold to deliberately bolt a route to render it X?"
Depends. Depends, among other things, on the style of the FA. Bold to rap bolt a sport route to render it X? No. Just plain stupid.
Drilling by hand, on sight, on lead from stances and/or in the middle of 5.9 or 5.10 moves? Whole different enchilada. Pass the salsa, please.
Brutus, who does have a problem with it, depending on input of the FA, because those who advocate bolting routes like the ones mentioned above generally have no idea of the history of the sport, or anything slightly removed from indoor (and outdoor) gyms.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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I couldn't say it better than Brutus. Do we really want all bolted routes retro-bolted down to the lowest common denominator? And who gets to decide what that is? Retrobolters can go climb something else. Leave alone the routes based on past ethics and tradition. To the extent they are "ego trips", it is equally an ego trip to think that such routes should be bolted down so they are "safe," so that the retro-bolter has access to all rock climbing routes.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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As ususual, Brutus nails it.
Maintenence, not replacement.
Not bold enough? There is always the top rope, lacking of the original experience, but better than changing the route.
"Retrobolters can go climb something else." how true, the problem is, that's not their goal or they would be first ascensionists; their goal is to be editors.
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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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all this talk about ego (i.e., bolts, bolt removal, style, balls or sacklessness). So, I wanted to post to talk about something else... Hairraiser Buttess, the formation. WOW, what a line! What a formation, in an incredible setting! Its too good to be true... I have climbed in a number of states over a number of years, and have never seen such a perfect multi-pitch climb that stands out like HR buttress. You could search a lifetime and there is only one...
Sorry to intrude on the bolt discussion, just thought I would add something different. Please resume...
btw-- really excellent discussion about the bolt controversy re: HRB. And {edit} i got the 100th post!
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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This is a weird coincidence: since I posted yesterday, Locker and I put up a 10c/d X today in JT. There was no choice other than jumping off the face and hoping the small wires below me would hold, so I ran it out. When listing it a few minutes ago, I gave permission for anyone wanting to to place a bolt to eliminate the X; I may do it myself.
To deliberately establish a route X when unnecessary is childish, ego-driven nonsense.
Further, retrobolting an X does not have to mean reducing the route to the lowest common denominator; that's simplistic.
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Brutus of Wyde
climber
Old Climbers' Home, Oakland CA
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"I gave permission for anyone wanting to to place a bolt to eliminate the X; I may do it myself."
Cool!
How would you feel about someone retrobolting The Edge on Tahquitz? Or some of the other routes I mentioned?
Appropriate?
Hair Raiser is a great line. I tried it once, after the (off route) bolts had been placed. Funny thing. I wandered way to the right to sling a knob I spotted over there, then wandered back to the (shiny fat) bolted line.
Eventually I retreated because I don't like leading face like that in gusty 50mph winds.
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Saratoga Springs, NY
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"No retro unless the F.A says so; "
No disrespect Mike. I think that's bollox.
No retro-bolts period. Leave routes as they were first climbed so that we can see how we where and where we came from.
Mick
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Mick Ryan
Trad climber
Saratoga Springs, NY
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and yes like Brutus said....just replace the old with new, like for like....not adding extras.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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actually, i once thought, as we matured, we'd be thinning them out.
i was then such a romantic fool...
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Aug 16, 2006 - 04:20pm PT
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I feel compelled to resurrect this thread, my wife, a friend and I having just done the route last week. The friendly note and the "restored" conditions prevailed -- though it would seem that the route wasn't really fully restored to original status.
First off, except for possibly slinging a knob/plate to the left of the 1st bolt, I did not note any knobs that could be effectively slung (even though I brought a few thin spectra type slings). In fact the 1st pitch doesn't have knobs. The face is littered with shallow "hueco" features and decent holdsand occasional small protuberences -- which weren't worth slinging.
The climbing on the first pitch is sustained and enjoyable. Just don't pop off. It has 3 bolts -- not always positioned in the logical spot (you have to wonder whether locations were moved during the retro bolting? -- see below). I noted one bolt sleeve -- a remant of the removed additional bolts -- as the only evidence of removal. No bolt scars or obvious holes.
The Second pitch seems to have 2 non-original bolts (total of 5). The 1st, 2nd and 3rd seem to be the near the original locales (though the original 1st bolt on the 2nd pitch -- broken hanger and all -- is still in situ and about 10 feet left of the new 1st bolt). However, there were 2 additional bolts above the 3rd, which seemed to my wife -- who lead this pitch-- somewhat superfluous).
The 3rd pitch (4 bolts) was only run out (5.9-) to the 1st bolt. It seemed strange -- given the run outs on the 1st and 2nd pitches -- that the last 3 bolts are so closely spaced. Nice Josh friction top out.
So, it seems that whoever "restored" the route did an incomplete job. Two extra (and arguably unecessary) bolts remained at the top of the 2nd pitch and I wonder whether one of the bolts on the last pitch was original??
A fun time was had by all (but a little on the warm side). If the route had more bolts, it would have still been fun, but certainly far less memorable. It is a good route. I would call the 1st pitch "X" rated due to the certain grounder if you blew it getting to the 2nd bolt.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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Aug 16, 2006 - 09:45pm PT
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Take micros along. If you pay close attention, there is a spot on the first pitch that takes one (can't remember the size).
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mack
Trad climber
vermont
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Aug 16, 2006 - 09:48pm PT
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I generally avoid x rated routes for the same reason I don't free solo. But there are certainly climbers out there doing both. I believe retro bolting is unethical or at least very rude behavior and should be strongly discouraged. Let the route stand as the FA's intended it to be - they "own" it.
Mack
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Aug 16, 2006 - 09:53pm PT
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I'm with Mack - take retro'd routes back!
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