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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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May 22, 2017 - 02:38pm PT
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God doesn't care if I care or not.
;-)
But, it sounds like it bugs you.
What I experience myself is in itself more than sufficient - it's fun to share with someone who experiences with the same understanding - sometimes it's joyously drunk with being (one of the reasons I like Rumi).
Sometimes I can feel and hear the Great Integrity. Sometimes, Dionysius makes me drink and f*#k.
None of that changes if I believe in god or don't believe in god...
...all the same stuff happens.
It's weird.
Maybe God's just f*#king with me.
Am I right or wrong about God? Don't care.
Are your right or wrong about God? You care.
Difference? Not much. Doesn't make God do anything different.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 22, 2017 - 02:50pm PT
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The only real question here is if there is a God, or in Werner's case, I believe, many Gods?
But doesn't this depend on definitions. How do we define God? What distinguishes deity? If we view intelligence or mind as a matter of degrees on a continuum then, based on our observations of the world around us, the potential for some entity more intelligent than we are seems a real possibility and at what point does that increased intelligence become, if not god-like, then god? What is maximum intelligence, the end of the continuum, if not divine?
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WBraun
climber
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May 22, 2017 - 03:05pm PT
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Mark Force see how you are guessing and projecting again.
It's bugging you not me.
There's no many Gods, only ONE God period, but can manifest in any form.
Just see how Base104 constantly projects his clueless "ideas" onto me.
And see how Paul asks himself intelligent questions instead of just throwing out foolish clueless academic opinions ....
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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May 22, 2017 - 03:36pm PT
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Mark Force see how you are guessing and projecting again.
Nope.
It's bugging you not me.
You sure?
There's no many Gods, only ONE God period, but can manifest in any form.
You sure? How do you know?
Hint: Passion is not proof.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 22, 2017 - 04:34pm PT
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Yeah, Univeral figures show a huge propensity towards a higher intelligence above that of the current humanoids. Hell, even Genesis told of a reptile that fooled a human....
but what's the best intelligence to have❓
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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May 22, 2017 - 04:38pm PT
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Blue, is the garden of eden account literal or figurative?
Just checking.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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May 22, 2017 - 05:28pm PT
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Hell, even Genesis told of a reptile that fooled a human....
And a serpent stole the gift of imortality from Gilgamesh - written 2000 years earlier.
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WBraun
climber
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May 22, 2017 - 05:36pm PT
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The logic of Mark Force types -- "Since I Mark Force don't ultimately know therefore no one else can know."
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 22, 2017 - 05:54pm PT
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One of globalization's upsides...
Facebook's director of AI Research, Yann LeCun.
An amazing response.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 22, 2017 - 06:24pm PT
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But Mark Force,
if indeed we lived in a 100% mechanistic universe (defined 100% by causation; meaning our physiology and brain states 100% obedient to underlying physics, chemistry, systems), would it be so bad? could we not adapt?
Just curious is all. Dinner banter.
Maybe just a percentage could adapt? Hmm...
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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May 22, 2017 - 06:47pm PT
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HFCS, I'm agnostic, remember? That's not that interesting a question relative to so many others - it's low on the list.
That "Is the universe only mechanistic without God" is a theistic rather than scientific question.
If you answer yes - what is your proof?
If you answer no what is your proof?
The question is not a scientific question.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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May 22, 2017 - 06:49pm PT
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Werner...It's all mind over matter...I don't mind and you don't matter...rj
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WBraun
climber
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May 22, 2017 - 07:00pm PT
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If you answer yes - what is your proof?
If you answer no what is your proof?
Simple have him do the actual experiment, not just talk nonsense, guess and say it's theistic.
Actually do something beyond staring at all your books and YouTubes.
You won't!
Your whole bag is all talk, quotes and no go .....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 22, 2017 - 07:32pm PT
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Mark Force,
(1) I didn't mention "God" - your quote is not mine.
(2) I said "if" suggesting you might speculate, yours as an option.
(3) Some find it more or less interesting than others, so this sets the priorities. Understandable. (I've always found it very interesting.)
(4) Without the "God" part, I certainly consider it a "scientific" question, an easy baby step from pretty much any scientific discipline, eg., control engineering (an engineering subdiscipline) which is 100 per cent mechanistic (causal).
(5) Last but not least, thanks for a reply, I was just curious.
PS
Am I non-theistic or agnostic? To my lights, the answer is 100% dependent on the question: Which God? Athena? Amon-Re? Yahweh? Yes, it matters. To my lights.
All scientific disciplines, taken together, at least those that have come my way, strongly imply a mechanistic universe - as a "scientific" view - just as many a scientific authority from Sagan to Wilson to Watson to Dawkins to Carroll to Weinburg to Cox has concluded, adopted, at least as a highest probability model.
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okay, whatever
climber
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May 22, 2017 - 07:37pm PT
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But man, proud man,
Dress'd in a little brief authority,
Most ignorant of what he's most assur'd --
His glassy essence -- like an angry ape
Plays such fantastic tricks before high heaven
As make the angels weep; who, with our spleens,
Would all themselves laugh mortal
Shakespeare, "Measure for Measure"
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 22, 2017 - 07:45pm PT
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if indeed we lived in a 100% mechanistic universe (defined 100% by causation; meaning our physiology and brain states 100% obedient to underlying physics, chemistry, systems), would it be so bad? could we not adapt?
The question is does a mechanistic universe exclude God? The assumption that God must be defined as an entity outside the structure of what is or what we know of nature seems uniquely prejudiced.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 22, 2017 - 07:53pm PT
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"The question is does a mechanistic universe exclude God?"
Not necessarily. Which God?
You could say... hfcs believes in God. Just not a personal God. (A personal God like Athena or a personal God like God Jesus.) Does that count? You could say... hfcs believes in an impersonal God. An impersonal Higher Power. Does that count? Would that count? How would your average conservative Christian or Muslim answer, I wonder.
I bet zhey'd still call hfcs an atheist. :)
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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May 22, 2017 - 08:37pm PT
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Am I non-theistic or agnostic? To my lights, the answer is 100% dependent on the question: Which God? Athena? Amon-Re? Yahweh? Yes, it matters. To my lights.
HFCS, How fun to have a conversation. The belief in an anthropomorphic god is interesting to me cuz I find peole and how they think interesting. I live in an area where people believe that Lemurians live inside Mt. Shasta and the stratified lenticular clouds form over Shasta when the UFOs arrive so they can't be seen.
Some people belive in chemtrails. Some people believe that since we're effing up this planet so bad we won't be able to live on it anymore we should colonize another one cuz that's easier than fixing this one.
Any question that has any reference to God in the positive or negative is a theistic question. That question is outside the concerns of scientific inquiry. The model of mechanism like other models we use in science is useful and limited. It is common to confuse the model with the reality we are observing and to apply more meaning to the model than is merited.
I am a lover of science and swim in PubMed and apply scientific discipline within the healing art every day though medicine and its iterations are not pure science and that is much of their appeal - there is rarely the possibility for such direct practice of humanistic intimacy.
Mechanism, useful as it is has limits and especially in the realm of medicine. It's not the only model for understanding our interface with the world. Mechanism doesn't touch the heart of practice and where the juice is when you are in the presence of someone choosing to heal. There is magic in reality. Seems like I've read that somewhere.
Dionysius isn't real certainly. The beauty of it is that Dionysius doesn't have to be real to inspire me to drink, dance and f*#k.
Jesus doesn't have to be real to inspire me to be forgiving and want to be of service.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 22, 2017 - 09:57pm PT
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Genesis was the first write about "scientific causation", God put into the earth seeds, but they did not grow until He brought the rain...
A plan requires causation in a chemical universe. But God and science both say nowhere can there be 100% caused action. Remember there's chaoticness randomness luckness hateness and Loveness which at anytime can make a left turn
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