Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
May 13, 2017 - 12:46pm PT
|
A guy who studies rocks and dead bones knows absolutely nothing about God but makes claims there is no God is the most deluded fool on the planet.
Your logic screams nothing but pure stoopid ......
|
|
Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
|
|
|
May 13, 2017 - 12:48pm PT
|
Proselytizing isn't limited to religion.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
May 13, 2017 - 12:51pm PT
|
His religion is rocks and dead bones, not life itself ......
|
|
jogill
climber
Colorado
|
|
|
May 13, 2017 - 01:16pm PT
|
Proselytizing isn't limited to religion
It's a primary force in politics.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
|
|
|
May 14, 2017 - 08:07am PT
|
Randisi, I left because I couldn't get a permanent residence permit in Japan and because I have a 93 year old mother in Colorado who needs an increasing amount of help. Hopefully in the future, I can spend some months / half the year every year in Asia. Recently though, I have made contact with some of the many Sherpas in Colorado and that has helped restore a sense of sanity.
|
|
BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
|
|
|
May 14, 2017 - 10:17am PT
|
I never said that there was no God. I don't believe that I've ever made that statement. I do disagree with the whole "Creation Science" hogwash.
All I am saying is that the old testament, and the most ancient stories of the Abrahamic religions are faulty.
Werner, if you want to visit me, we can work something out. I can show you the rocks we see in deep oil wells, which start out in the Cretaceous and end up in the Ordovician. I can take you on cool field trips and help you to understand the stories told by rocks.
You cannot ignore geology any more than you can ignore astronomy. You would have to live your life without looking up or down. Geology is a fairly mature science. It draws upon Chemistry, Physics, and Biology.
I would not mention religion once.
If you look at my posts, notice that I said that the biblical account is false. I never said that God did not exist. That, in my mind, is a personal matter. Faith, by its nature, has to be personal. I couldn't care less what religion you believe in. I've said this quite a few times:
If God did it, he did it in a different way from that account.
|
|
BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
|
|
|
May 14, 2017 - 10:33am PT
|
On Proselytism:
Not really: there are religions of conversion and religions of birth. Can you think of an example of each?
From the Wiki page on the topic:
"The word proselytize is derived from the Greek language prefix προσ- (pros-, toward) and the verb ἔρχομαι (érchomai, to come) in the form of προσήλυτος (prosélytos, a new comer).[3] Historically in the Koine Greek Septuagint and New Testament, the word proselyte denoted a gentile who was considering conversion to Judaism. Though the word proselytism originally referred to Early Christianity (and earlier Gentiles such as God-fearers), it now refers to the attempt of any religion or religious individuals to convert people to their beliefs, or any attempt to convert people to a different point of view, religious or not. Proselytism is illegal in some countries.[4]"
The religions that do this cover the vast majority of people, and that page gives examples:
Bahá'í Faith, Christianity, Indian religions, Buddhism (that one surprised me, but it is discussed), Hinduism, Hare Krishna, Jainism, Sikhism, Islam, Judaism.
They don't mention Mormons, but they are the King Bee's. I suppose they don't want to separate it from Christianity.
Werner says that "Hinduism" is not a word, but it is. You can also call it Sanatana Dharma.
So let me know of a religion that doesn't
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
May 14, 2017 - 10:39am PT
|
I never ever said Hinduism is not a word.
I said there is no such word in the Vedas.
See how much you misunderstand even a simple elementary thing such as this.
Then what to speak of most of the stuff you are totally clueless too since you're only very tiny limited knowledge is academics .....
|
|
paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
|
|
|
May 14, 2017 - 12:41pm PT
|
So let me know of a religion that doesn't
Religions of conversion include Christianity and Buddhism. And of course any individual in any religion can proselytize but generally speaking Judaism is religion one is born into (if your mother is Jewish then so are you) and not a faith of general conversion though some convert to that religion but of course that's unusual. As well being born into the caste system is not a result of conversion but birth. Christianity with its accent historically on the necessity of conversion seems the most argumentative of religions and some say the invention of the codex in the west is a result of that accent on argument for the sake of conversion.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
|
May 14, 2017 - 04:31pm PT
|
Dingus, great video documentary, tfpu about it.
Watching it made me wish I spoke Chinese (I'm jealous of those who do, lol) and watching it and feeling all that energy or spirit or vitality made me - at least part of me - wish I were 20 years old again!
Watching it I learned a new word... Shanzhai...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanzhai
It was also an opportunity to read up on Shenzhen...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenzhen
Really, I could see myself hanging out there for awhile, a couple weeks to a couple years!
Certainly the documentary helps make the case that H. sapiens has moved into a global ecology now and there is no getting that horse back into the barn (what barn?), lol!
I'll probably watch it again, it's that good. I'm sure there are things (e.g., points of view, images of product prototypes, cool!) I missed first time through. Very interesting and thought provoking - the balance / conflict / cooperation between open-source and proprietary in regards to economy, individual compensation and then also global advance of civilization.
Re debate and balance between open-source vs proprietary
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanzhai#Critical_reception
My "inner nationalist" must be awol since I want Shenzhen and China to go big and to succeed - and to make huge contributions to the future history of civilization.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGJ5cZnoodY
Go Shenzhen!
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
|
May 15, 2017 - 11:04am PT
|
Here's the thought-quote I was looking for earlier but couldn't find it...
"I do think that the core tenets of sharing IP that they have is extremely enabling." -Andrew, presenter
Certainly thought-provoking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGJ5cZnoodY
...
So what's the issue with proselytizing? I am not entirely clear on why this item was raised.
S Digiulian, A Honnold and T Caldwell were just at US Congress advocating for protecting our wild places.
a) Were they proselytizing?
b) Were they engaging issues - sociopolitical issues - they care about - and exercising their right if not duty - as responsible, concerned citizens of a democratic republic?
Insofar as "proselytizing" is pejorative maybe it has something to do first and foremost with religion or theism and its historical behavior?
Claim: "Citizen engagement is vital to our democracy." Hillary Clinton believes this. (She just tweeted about it, lol.) Apparently so do Honnold, et al.
So... if we are going to insist on using the term "proselytizing" loosely (eg, in nonreligious context) then maybe we need to expand our nuanced thinking to recognize that it manifests along a spectrum - from negative proselytizing (that is unhelpful or counterproductive) to positive proselytizing (that is productive)?
...
Great flick. Miss Sloane (2016). Saw it a few days back, somehow I had missed it...
All about lobbying shenanigans (professional proselytizing?) that go on in Washington.
I watched it for its gameplay mechanics (iow, "game theory" matter) not in any academic economic or mathematical or evolutionary context but in general life context, otherwise "lifecoaching" or "life strategizing" context.
Prediction: the term "game theory" will cover a lot more territory in the future than it has in the past. There's a lot to say about "game mechanics" – in other words, "game theory" - that isn't so mathematics-centered, there’s a lot more to say about it in everyday vernacular.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
|
May 15, 2017 - 12:27pm PT
|
(Couldn't post earlier, how strange.)
BASE,
you post about "God" as if "God" is some abstract "Higher Power".
The problem is that the conversation - both here on this thread and in America at large - is in Abrahamic Christian context usually (nine times out of ten) concerning the fundamentalist literalists you're posting to and/or referencing. So the "God" in question is not some amorphous, impersonal, nonspecific "God" but instead "God" is "the God of Moses" (of the Christian Bible's OT and NT).
Or, could you really be suggesting as your posts do - over and over - that though there is reason, science and evidence for a billion year earth there is not reason and evidence, mostly reason, for justifying the rejection of the very specific God of Moses (aka Jehovah aka Yahweh) as myth, as fiction?
What about all the other personal "Gods" of human history? Aphrodite. Amon-Re. Quetzalcoatl... Really, there is or there is not enough reason or reasonable argument? or there is or there is not enough evidence of human nature, incl human history, to reasonably "reject" these non-jehovahn specific God concepts?
Why should the God of Moses and His Son get some apparent exemption from various lines of reason and argument when these other "Gods" or deities do not? Where is the good sense here?
If you can use your background in geology and earth science to reject Creationism (of Abrahamic C) in reasonable terms, then others can use their backgrounds in science, reason, argument and evidence to reject this very specific warrior "God" Jehovah and "His Son" (of Abrahamic C) in equally reasonable terms. We can be balanced here, we should.
Gotta get real, man.
Also, in the past, you said you actually read the Koran, that it could be read in weekend (which is true), if memory serves. But recently now you've said you read only half of it. Which is it? Just curious.
...
America is in decline and most likely will not make it by 2020.
I wonder what is meant by this? by 2020?
Shenzhen: (1) At an average of $727 per square foot, real estate prices are higher than anywhere in the U.S. (2) Shenzhen has eased the path for migrant workers to become full citizens: Anyone who buys an apartment is entitled to full residency rights. (3) All across the city, posters declare that "innovation [is] encouraged and failure tolerated." (4) the city´s thriving private-sector competes fiercely to develop products that can survive in a cutthroat market. (5) Shenzhen is proof the formula works.
"In the West it's call theft, here it's called sharing."
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
|
|
|
May 15, 2017 - 09:14pm PT
|
Jan: It's not likely that America will ever assume the group oriented mindset of the East Asians, so the best we can hope for it seems to me, is to make them more ethical on an individually chosen basis which resorts to some form of belief system.
Indeed, we’ll have to watch what happens.
All past development in consciousness over time immemorial has been pointing to an autonomous being as a pinnacle of awareness or consciousness ((for the moment)). The sign of autonomy relies upon a fully functional will that transcends national, community, familial, and disciplinary cultural elements. In fact, it’s what we’ve been training / educating students to or for in higher education—the ability to think and feel for him or herself with consideration of others empathically. That process cuts at the ties that create communities large and small. The downside—as Marx, Weber, Mill, Wright, and others have noted starting in the 1800s—is alienation, anomie, meaningless, estrangement, and all sorts of disconnectedness and eerie feelings of malaise that people find themselves increasingly as societies modernize.
So, one sees the so-called good with the bad arising together: a variety of forms of modernization and associated alienation.
One ought not complain. Alienation etc. are our next set of human challenges that we face, it seems to me. How I can be a fully functioning human being, with reason aesthetics and moral, but without bias, and be a committed community member of some sort.
All polarities get integrated in some form or another in time, and the resolution seems to rely upon even greater understanding of emptiness—of how things are not exactly what we think they are. They are all much much more.
We should recognize and celebrate our recent graduation to functional independent beings that can truly think and feel for ourselves without basing everything upon what authorities tell us.
So now, . . . how to integrate within infinite variegation. How can one be a community member--committed and engaged fully—and truly be oneself?
Be well.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
|
May 16, 2017 - 12:45pm PT
|
On a lighter note...
There's a starman waiting in the sky
He's told us not to blow it
'Cause he knows it's all worthwhile
'Cause it's all worthwhile!
....
Thanks to a tweet from Bill Gates, Steven Pinker's Better Angels is back to number one in nonfiction. If one needs evidence (data-sets) that Homo sapiens is less violent than ever in history, this is the book to read, no, study.
|
|
Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
|
|
|
May 16, 2017 - 01:22pm PT
|
I second Pinkerton's book.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
May 16, 2017 - 01:24pm PT
|
Homo sapiens is less violent than ever in history,
Such deluded bullsh!t as ever.
All the slaughterhouses are not taken into account.
The violence against living entities is astronomical now and more than ever due to your stoopid modern science .....
|
|
Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
|
|
|
May 16, 2017 - 01:37pm PT
|
|
|
Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
|
|
|
May 16, 2017 - 02:15pm PT
|
Geo-Cranial-Metamorphosing
The rocks in my yard
Remain unchanged
Over trillions of seconds
And yet they remain
Replete, decisive
Unlike the rocks
Inside my head
Philosophically metamorphosing
From birth until I'm dead
-bushman
05/16/2017
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
|
May 16, 2017 - 02:23pm PT
|
Mark Force, you might be interested in this...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2iAECU7QV8
Starting today, in fact.
Jordan Peterson has skyrocketed in popularity in recent months.
From a youtube commenter...
"As an atheist, I'm very excited to see this, hopefully it allows me to conceptualize religion in a different way."
PS
He typically uploads his lectures to youtube soon after giving them.
|
|
paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
|
|
|
May 16, 2017 - 03:20pm PT
|
The problem is that the conversation - both here on this thread and in America at large - is in Abrahamic Christian context usually (nine times out of ten) concerning the fundamentalist literalists you're posting to and/or referencing. So the "God" in question is not some amorphous, impersonal, nonspecific "God" but instead "God" is "the God of Moses" (of the Christian Bible's OT and NT).
I think the real problem here is just how limited the above conversation is with regard to the validity of religious ideas in general. Fundamentalist notions worldwide, in whatever religion, are decidedly in the minority. And, again, you might not like a fundamentalist reading of the Old Testament, but that's just one reading... and there are many readings. In those readings there is considerable wisdom and this is true of the New Testament as well. The God in question is as much an obfuscating mystery as anything else and when you define that God so narrowly, and then find from that definition something, a reason to attack or expose it as a general condition of religious thought, you've made something of an error.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!