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Rollover
climber
Gross Vegas
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Bigger than a large toddler.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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^^^^^^^^
Ho man. The crystal collection at the Smithsonian is unreal. I spent parts of two days there a few years ago. It is mindblowing. They have incredible gemstones, like of course the Hope diamond, but they also have many of the best examples of particular crystals on the planet. Some precious, some not, but all of them are the best.
I now work in my state's natural history museum. I can tell you that a fraction of a percent of what is on display accounts for the entire collection of the museum.
There are only a few plant fossils on display, but just in paleobotany, we have almost a hundred thousand specimens. My job is to assign geologic dates to those specimens. It is interesting. I read paper after paper on surface stratigraphy. I'm a subsurface geologist, so I've had to marry the two.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Deja Vu in Neurology
The significance of déjà vu is widely recognised in the context of temporal lobe epilepsy, and enquiry about déjà vu is frequently made in the clinical assessment of patients with possible epilepsy. Déjà vu has also been associated with several psychiatric disorders. The historical context of current understanding of déjà vu is discussed. The literature reveals déjà vu to be a common phenomenon consistent with normality. Several authors have suggested the existence of a “pathological” form of déjà vu that differs, qualitatively or quantitatively, from “non-pathological” déjà vu. The features of déjà vu suggesting neurological or psychiatric pathology are discussed. Several neuroanatomical and psychological models of the déjà vu experience are highlighted, implicating the perceptual, mnemonic and affective regions of the lateral temporal cortex, hippocampus and amygdala in the genesis of déjà vu. A possible genetic basis for a neurochemical model of déjà vu is discussed. Clinical approaches to the patient presenting with possible déjà vu are proposed.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00415-005-0677-3
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Tourmaline
Garnet with natural cross
My interest now is collecting Ultra-Rare Gem Mineral Crystals
Painite
This one is new to science, cesium rich beryl
Vorobyevite
and I grow life like crystals
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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The significance of déjà vu is widely recognised in the context of . . .
I get the feeling I've read this before.
Moose, please use your esp to tell me when I'll receive my tax refund. Thanks.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Ed: or perhaps your memory recall is messed up by the drugs you're taking...
That is one potential interpretation.
It might be ill-advised to dismiss Moose’s report. He’s the one with the data, and I was taught that one should never argue with the data. The data are the data are the data. What can be argued with are the constructs, the way of gathering the data, the metrics, the methods of testing and validation, and / or the theories under consideration.
On the other hand, I think that sometimes folks dismiss a report simply because it doesn’t agree with their beliefs. In my educational experience, there’s no science in that.
Be well.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I think moose's testimony is just that, but it is not "data" by any stretch...
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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My cactus creation, hybrid from seed
which I named "Mt. Girl"
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Ed: I think moose's testimony is just that, but it is not "data" by any stretch...
Well, it is in many areas of research. Any survey produces data. Asking people what they hear, see, taste, feel with tactile sensation, and even think will produce data. In the rawest sense, sensation is the basis for empirical research. When you see a reading on a meter, that is data. What you take that reading to indicate is where normal interpretations often begin; but if you think about it, interpretations were designed into the instrument.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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I think the nature of evidence based on personal testimony and your "feeling" about what is happening is very subjective.
In polite company it is considered offensive to question another's subjective experience, and this is used to various effect, that is, an appeal to emotion. If I feel passionately about something it is my feeling, and to question those feelings is an act of invalidating me.
The use of emotional appeals in our current political "discussion" revolves around this sort of question, the rejection of fact is based on these sorts of validations.
I have thought a lot about these sorts of experiences, deja vu, lucid dreaming, out of body experiences, and those thoughts all return to the same set of questions: how does my "normal" perception come about? that is, e.g., why do I have "in body" experience? Fundamentally, what is the physiological origin of my perception, and how could these physiological processes be altered to produce a change in perception?
Traditionally, such processes had been interpreted as caused by some non-physical process, demon possession, the voice of god, psychic abilities, "paranormal" behavior, etc. Generally these are explanations that predate our understanding of the nervous system and the role it plays in creating what we perceive.
While we are all different in details, the information we obtain is different, and our perceptions different, that is to say, we have subjective experiences. We do discuss these subjective experiences and find commonality, we start to construct an objective reality.
It should be relatively uncontroversial that taking powerful, mind altering drugs, like those modern sleeping aids are, could have greater ramifications, and in particular, to those parts of the brain that are identified with memory. And as phenomena like deja vu have at their root the sorting out of what had happened in the past and what in the future, by way of our memory, one wonders that the onset of deja vu experience with the use of those drugs might not be more about brain chemistry than about some ability that portends the future.
But inevitably, when discussed in a rational manner, these discussions are interpreted as an invalidation of personal experience. I do not question the personal experience, I question whether or not it has any physical meaning beyond that individual.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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I do not question the personal experience, I question whether or not it has any physical meaning beyond that individual.
Deserves repeating...
...and pondering.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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while he won't mention it here, MikeL is fond of reminding us "beaker boys" that consensus isn't necessarily evidence for reality.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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When there is 7+B people on the Earth...
literally hundreds everyday experience one-in-a-million "royal flush" type events that no doubt, at least for awhile, blow their minds.
I wrote a paper and gave a talk on this phenomenon bitd. An amazing thing.
Probability science should be taught in public schooling, along with brain science, beginning say in 6th grade, IMO.
...
Time we moved on from post-modernist bloviation and stopped enabling this nonsense.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Glad to see you back Craig, with your cactus photos. They were a highlight of the old Science vs. Religion thread, along with your crystals.
I mentioned these three Ted talks on the Mind thread as well. They're part of a series on neuro biology and religion.
A Scientific Defense of Spiritual and Religious Faith
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BihT0XrPVP8
This one talks about how we have two different minds within one brain (dual process theory), the mind that is logical and supports science and the mind that is intuitive, emotional, and socially and ethically oriented from which religion springs. The increased emphasis in STEM subjects has brought about a measurable, researched decline in empathy among students. Therefore we need to use both halves, but the non analytical side according to your own decisions rather than traditional authority.
Reality Reconciles Science and Religion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QeTWVw9Fm4
Reality is the new word for God here. Religion always tried to reconcile us to reality, but we have frozen it into a set of dogmas which no longer reflect natural reality, nor understand the symbolic and myth making properties of religion about reality.
Three quotes
Our brains are remarkable, but they're not perfect.
Reality is what doesn’t go away when you no longer believe in it.
Evidence is modern day scripture.
And finally,
Neuroscience and religion
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWIf6mOSPkQ
describes a class taught by a scientist which is half neuro science and half religion, and discusses the deeper human questions and ethical dilemmas from both points of view. The students love researching the topics and presenting them.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Ed,
You’ve quickly jumped from a report to an “emotional appeal.” We are not all as you’ve characterized. Some people can actually think and feel for themselves. I think you can count me in with that group.
You’ve written a long list of interpretations about one report from Moose. If any of us were serious about it, we’d start with the basics . . . like, what constructs are, what the theories are, how we could find ways to bring views to a coalescence, etc. I feel sure you don’t care about it, but I find your reasoning on this particular report far less scientific and far more physicalist.
I don’t think I have ever in my life uttered or written the words or meaning to “beaker boys.” Careful, your distain and disregard are showing like a pink petticoat.
And, yeah, like Jan says: .. . like the cactus, Dr. F.
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WBraun
climber
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Just let Ed speak any way he wants.
If he gets emotional it shows he's still human and not a PC robot.
We an accept or reject.
But I like him a lot as the person he is as he is .....
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Lab coats and Beaker boys are badges of honor. I'm not certain how to designate mathematicians - perhaps Slide rulers. That sound about right, Sycorax?
Being paunchy is gold-plating the badge.
Be proud. Be round.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Yes it's clear that institutional religion is on the decline everywhere in the western world. The U.S. was the last hold out and we're seeing it happen here as well. However, the human brain has been wired for religion/spirituality/belief systems for at least 100,000 years (our Homo sapiens predecessors the Neanderthals show evidence of belief in an afterlife) Therefore the impulse is likely to continue for a long time. The question is what will the new forms of it take?
Some have pointed out that sports events have replaced crusades and religious wars while still exhibiting tribalism. Others have pointed out that tribalistic politics seems to have been the substitute for many. Neither however, has a particular ethical component, so how to encourage that in a post religious institutional world is one of the big questions.
All of the videos I posted approach the issue from that point of view, not from any particular institutional perspective.
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