Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2009 - 08:18am PT
|
Regardless of translations, the two accounts of creation given in the Genesis book bear no resemblance to the evidence we can actually see of the beginnings of the universe or of the earth. The timelines can't be reconciled and the story is clearly an imaginary account by writers who were doing the best they could to get a grip on a complicated, puzzling, and dangerous world.
Plus, it was all cobbled together from scraps of older mythologies, then passed off as original and exclusive of the rest. That was a really clever marketing hook.
|
|
eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2009 - 09:42am PT
|
The more I think of it, the more I am absolutely astounded that educated people in the 21st century can actually believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. I am by nature an optimist, but the fact that there are so many in the United States that have ths view makes me very pessimistic about our long term prospects.
|
|
Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2009 - 10:15am PT
|
An atheist is like a drop saying there is no ocean, a drop will dry up PDQ!
|
|
eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2009 - 10:16am PT
|
Thanks at least for not posting yet another dopey biblical reference, Gobee.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2009 - 10:25am PT
|
That's just the Angst of your Catholic upbringing talking, Grug! lol
Oh and congratulations, btw!
|
|
eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2009 - 10:55am PT
|
Thanks, Jaybro. I couldn't be happier.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2009 - 11:08am PT
|
Neanderthals and H. sapiens:
Go-
Sorry for the previous confusion.
As for neanderthals, the interpretation which is most common now is that they evolved directly from H. erectus in Europe only, becoming a unique population because they were cut off from contact with others by the glaciation of the ice age they lived through. Homo sapiens evolved in Africa from H. erectus or its immediate descendant, H. heidelbergensis or H. rhodensiensis which ever name is finally settled on. This happened about 190,000 years ago. Then about 50,000 years ago sapiens left Africa, heading first for the Middle East and then into Eurasia (currently Russia and the central Asian republics of Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kirghistan). They were hunters and followed the big game into the grasslands. After this they branched out to the northeast and southeast and eventually about 30,000 years ago entered Europe in the region around Poland. At that time, if not before in parts of Eurasia, they encountered neanderthals.
It certainly must have been a shock to both groups when they first saw each other but they continued to coexist until surprisingly modern times. Gradually the neanderthals were pushed westward and the last evidence we have of them is a cave in southern Spain near Gibralter which dates to only 27,000 years ago. A similar coexistence must have existed in east Asia as well, between the descendants of H. erects in China and the H. sapiens who moved in later. Meanwhile we get intriguing tales from Indonesia that there were "little people" (H. floresiensis ? ) living up on the cliffs in the mountains as recently as 150 years ago.
Jean Auel has written a series of books about the H. neanderthal-H. sapiens encounter, including Clan of the Cave Bear, Valley of the Horses, the Mammoth hunters, Plains of Passage, The Shelters of Stone. I always tell my freshmen students that they could have written those books with the information in our textbook and become millionaires too, but it was Auel's genius to perceive that the public would actually be that interested in prehistoric life.
Neanderthals, Sapiens, and Yeti stories:
Meanwhile, it doesn't take much imagination from anyone to suspect that the stories of yeti could well have emerged from these encounters and been preserved down to the present day in certain areas of the world. Sasquatch is more likely to have come from the more recent encounters of Native Americans and Ainu from Siberia or even northern Japan who wandered into the New World. Kennewick Man found in Oregon is non Native American and dates to only 11,000 years ago. The Ainu have sometimes been classed as Causcasian as they have light skin, unfolded eyes, and a lot of body hair.
Personally, I would be very surprised if any undiscovered primates are found in Asia although there are some intriguing stories from remote areas of Bhutan and Assam in north eastern India where the terrain is tropical enough and the jungle dense enough to support a type of ape. What I don't believe is apes living at 12,000 feet and above in the Himalaya. I'm with Reinhold Messner in believing that the physical yeti are in fact nocturnal bears which have become interwoven with stories of scary apes from the past and the Tibetan legend of the human race being founded by the mating of a monkey and a demoness. The valley of Rolwaling, due west of Everest, which I have studied for 35 years now, has many stories of yeti sightings by very credible people. When Hillary visited there searching for the yeti in the 1950's, he was sold a yeti skin which turned out to be that of a Himalayan blue bear.
The most gripping yeti story however, involves a good Sherpa friend of mine who was awakened in the night by something ripping boards off his roof trying to get into the house. His family began praying and banging on pots and pans and lighting butter lamps (no electricity and no flash lights). They noticed a foul odor in the process. Whatever it was, it then broke into a small barn and a terrific struggle broke out between their Tibetan ox and the unknown beast. The ox was killed and drug over a 3 foot stone wall and about a quarter of a mile down the path, where it had its stomach ripped open and internal organs eaten before being abandoned. The elongated footprints left behind were not exactly human but there were no obvious claw marks either, lending credence to Messner's idea that Tibetan bears place the back feet into the tracks of the front feet, giving the appearance of upright walking and human-like feet.
Nowadays it has been several years since a yeti has been spotted and I personally believe this is the result of the Chinese army and Tibetan hunters pretty much eliminating them on the heavily patrolled Tibetan side of the border so that they no longer cross over to Nepal as they used to.
|
|
GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2009 - 12:38pm PT
|
Jan - thanks, as always, for the history lesson! Fascinating stuff! Sounds like I had the story about right, except that it was the Sapiens who came from Heidelbergensis/Rhodesiensus, and Neanderthals who came from Erectus, rather than the other way around. But the same lesson remains.
I haven't read any of the Clan of the Cave Bear books, though I did see and enjoy Quest for Fire. So you think either of these is a reasonable interpretation of what is known? Sounds like the books might be an enjoyable read. I think when I was younger I was turned off by the marketing for girls the books had, but I'm sure I can get beyond that.
Interesting stories and theories about Yetis etc!
So much of human nature seems to center around "us and them" - even right here in this thread (who is a Christian and who isn't, do you have faith or don't you, can you think critically or not, etc). Of course this isn't hard to explain from our simple familial/tribal roots. But I wonder if maybe it has a harder edge due to our multiple run-ins with the "other like us".
I wonder if you could find populations in Africa that haven't had run-ins like this since the demise of African H. Erectus, 400,000 years ago - if you could see any differences in the *way* they do the us-and-them thing. Certainly war is not a European human construct - it seems universal. Hell, even chimps do it! But perhaps the Africans have a different take on it. Better? Worse? Dunno, but perhaps there's something to be learned.
I mean, it's this constant desire to discern whether you're an "us" or a "them" that seems to most get in the way of humanity's ability to work for good.
GO
|
|
cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2009 - 04:14pm PT
|
Life in general pretty much sucked back then too, so the nifty idea that the more they suffered, the more they would get after they died was a lot more persuasive.
|
|
MH2
climber
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2009 - 04:21pm PT
|
Thanks Jan!
Is it possible to map anywhere near the complete genome from any ancient non-human DNA bits?
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2009 - 04:41pm PT
|
MH2-
So far the oldest DNA that has been tested is Neanderthal at about 30,000 years. They have enough fossil fragments to do the whole genome if they wanted, but that isn't necessary. Testing the genes we know are most likely to mutate and comparing them is sufficient and is what modern DNA testing services do.
|
|
Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2009 - 07:26pm PT
|
Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit!
|
|
cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2009 - 07:34pm PT
|
I thought the bun was the lowest form of wheat.
|
|
WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin place
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2009 - 07:37pm PT
|
Faith in, and the parroting of, the words of others is the highest form of vacuousness.
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2009 - 07:43pm PT
|
I like Wes even if he thinks lynnie is misguided. Zokay, we still be freunden, Ja Wes? :D
Just got back again from out of town, well actually still out of town but back at computer access. Peace, lynne
Will read Thread later this evening to see just what's happenin'.
Hearts to all and remember, Life, you only have the moment you are living. Tomorrow not a guarentee. I was just reminded again today.
|
|
Gene
Social climber
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2009 - 07:45pm PT
|
"Life, you only have the moment you are living. Tomorrow not a guarentee. I was just reminded again today."
Hear you, Friend. Peace to you and yours.
Malone
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2009 - 07:52pm PT
|
Thank you Malone, you know......wish it would resonate with others. Lynne
We are created, we live, ( and none of us know the number of our days ) we die. Are we really ready for the last moment ? Really, are we? Lynne
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2009 - 08:43pm PT
|
The Bible is the fairytale of uneducated people complete with incest, infanticide, and murder... all ordered by God himself. Vague, misguided attempts at moral guidance from a time when awareness of the world was limited to an area smaller than United States.
God blessed us all reason... and THIS is what you choose?
------
The problem is that the "Bible" is a vastly cobbled work, and while "fairytale" and "uneducated" might pertain to literal bastardizations of ancient biblical allegories and metaphors (Jonah, Tower of Babel, etc.), to apply that same charge to the Song of Songs or The Beatitudes/Sermon on the Mount (to mention a few), is to foolishly dismiss some illuminated material IMO.
JL
|
|
Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2009 - 10:21pm PT
|
Jan, thanks for the science lesson, it was a fascinating read. I loved the Jean Aul books, they were a cool account of how life could have been back in time. The hot sex and intrigue made them even more appealing.
Back to the discussion heathens. God bless you all.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2009 - 10:26pm PT
|
I quite enjoy learning more about fossils and human origins and such. Thank you for the lessons!
Much of the Clan of the Cave Bear was filmed in Cathedral Provincial Park, about 200 km east of Vancouver. I've never seen it - although I like reading about history, including historical fiction, I've never developed much of a taste for Auel's fur-bodice rippers.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!