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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Coz, are you smoking crack?? how the heck would GU take away from your rout?? If anything it makes your route look even more hardcore. When will you guys learn the key lesson in life?
It is not what the other guy/gal does. Its what you do that counts.
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SteveW
Trad climber
State of confusion
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Okay folks, I'm takin' bets. How soon will this thread
not die and hit 1000?????
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Jstan, dosen't that sound a bit like bullshit when you say we have to leave room for each other but take sides against Doug and Sean because you don't like their style as much as your style???
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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jstan makes an interesting point. How do we do it? The resources are after all, quite finite.
Maybe by not publishing the climb. Novel. Solves the problem of the FA. Then everybody can do FAs, since he does not publish anything (including spewing about it to his buddies).
Start over. Any existing climbs "do not exist", and any of those "previously but now non-existent" climbs can be done in the style desired by the next FA.
Oops. Somebody wants to own a climb. Somebody wants a legacy.
Oh well.
What is the alternative? I have to buy a guide book to make sure I do not climb somebody else's climb in my style instead of his. OK, I can do that, but then I can't write about it. Do we have a "copyright" issue? If so, is it about the book, or the climb? If it is the book, it is about money, if it is the climb it is about ME.
Oh well.
That leaves the coz's and the not coz's forever in dispute because they simply are not capable of forging an agreement. A thousand posts! The only thing that will keep it from 2000 is how long it takes to post or edit posts.
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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We should remember that. (1) the top down exploration and installation that went on here was put into motion only after the ground up climbing was no longer free-able. It seems that the FIRST ASCENT party decided to SACRAFICE their ground up ascent in order to cause less of a impact on the stone. (2) They easily could of just drilled and drilled and drilled until they unlocked the puzzle. In the end I believe the decision was a good one if one had an idea that it may (AGAIN) cause less of a impact to the stone. I think that COMPLETING Growing Up in this mixed style was a good calculated way of seeing the future. Its not OK to just run out and GRID BOLT and I don't think anyone wants to or is going to. It looks like both sides believe that GROUND UP is a BETTER way to climb. Mixed style to leave behind something that was complete and clean.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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SteveW Wrote:
Okay folks, I'm takin' bets. How soon will this thread not die and hit 1000?????
It's knott a question whether it will hit 1000 - it's whether it wiill hit 1000 TODAY...
So nobody answered my question of how far apart the rap-bolts were placed on the upper pitches.
-because if I decided to rap from the top so I could "redpoint" those pitches, I would be highly
annoyed if there was any run-out at all.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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I think you have to a complete idiot to think that Sean, Doug and Wilddone could not have gotten up this thing from the ground up. Once you have a bolt kit and enough determimation...the result is pretty much known.
Their ascent took the path of less impact and in their eyes higher quality. Let history be the judge of Sean effort and not some self appointed posse!
Fat wrote: And societies collapse when bare minimums of ethical behavior are allowed to fall by the wayside. Rapbolting on a bigwall was my minimum.
But not the killing of thousands of innocent Iraq's.
You have really big issues.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona, Spain
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bump. Werner - mellow out an smoke a joint
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jstan
climber
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OK Tradman, show me where I took sides on the SFHD. Show me where and I will admit to being full of BS. If you can't show me you will need to admit you are full of BS. Called spin these days.
Some of you may be too young to know that decades ago I had the pleasure of working with Doug on a pretty big problem. It was a whole lot bigger problem than is this crappy little land use problem we have suffered with for the last thirty years.
Frankly, it is hard to believe intelligent and capable people like ourselves are behaving as we are.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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coz,
Now I hear that you're really listening to Sean. Thanks. It makes a big difference.
And I hear that you still disapprove. That you think Growing Up should be chopped, but you're not going to do it. That's fine too. Better than before. The discussion goes on.
I too think -- I'm saying it again -- Southern Belle is one of the greatest routes in the Valley. I too think that its stature is only increased by having Growing Up share the wall. Now folks can climb on the same rock without facing the seriousness of your climb, so they get to better appreciate what you guys did. Hats off to you once again.
I'm pretty impressed that you decided to leave the Belle runout as a tribute to Walt. And I'm even more impressed -- a little shocked, even -- that you were seriously considering adding bolts to it so more "people would do it."
I know you don't approve the style of Growing Up, but I think now that it exists, your goal of making the wall accessible to more climbers is realized. And your bold memorial to Walt is preserved. I think even enhanced.
I hear that you care passionately about climbing. So do I. We agree on that, and it's a good place to start.
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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tradman, style and method are used synonomously, as are style and flair/panace'.
Semantics make a difference when making either points or accusatory statements.
Before we call in the style police, we had better be sure which squad is required.
edit: Thanks for posting that, DR, THAT reason may be in better style.
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WBraun
climber
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I remember when Kauk rap bolted TKO. A lot of people said they lost all respect for Ron.
I never lost any respect for him, the guy has saved my life at times out there.
Lose respect for someone over a climb?
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona, Spain
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I think it's time to open up a discussion about the proper strategy to make post 1000 on this thread. I know I want to be there! BTW, I actually went beer drinking and climbing with Walt Shipley, and I'm pretty sure he would be worrying about the question of the 1000th post, too. Maybe a good way to do it would be to post a lot, and then delete the required number ???
Sorry about this stupidity, I couldn't help myself. Free will got the better of me. Ciao mein.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Warbler,
thanks for your thoughts on the evolution of climbing in Yosemite. Clearly El Cap is now much different than it was back in the 60's. My point was that, given how few routes there are on the SFHD, I kind of viewed SFHD as the El Cap of the 60's namely a stone which is still in the infancy of its climbing so the "do it in better style" that was employed by Robbins, Chouinard, Pratt, Frost down the Valley may still be a reasonable opinion.
Bruce
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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JStan wrote
"We need, consciously, to leave room for each other.
We don't leave room for others when we feel everyone can change any piece of rock as they damn well please. A society is formed when individuals leave room for each other.
Even apes know that."
Since it seems you were misunderstood, who have you lost respect for. And are we leaving room for future first ascensionists or while we're considering each other as climbers, does it possibly include leaving room for the less elite as well?
Peace
Karl
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Bob D, I totally agree that Sean could have done the upper wall on lead. He should have. If the finished product turned out to be a death route he could have returned to make it safe on rappel. By his own admission he's done this before. In my opinion that would have been the example to set for the future. A selfless act by a Yosemite f.a. pioneer. Win win for all
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Karl: "And are we leaving room for future first ascensionists or while we're considering each other as climbers, does it possibly include leaving room for the less elite as well?"
This is where scope creep will happen with that rationale in a decade or so when we are fighting via ferratas on public land. We're all 'elites' as rock climbers and once gym and sport climbing have saturated popular culture it will begin to spread out horizontally to a broader public constituency that will claim an entitlement to let their 'inner fun hog' free on risk-free lines as 'climbers'.
Sharing the rock with the 'less elite' will sooner or later end up redefining climbing and climbers in the US to include via ferratas. When they start making the leap from private to public lands using this rationale its proponents will be using the same arguments seen here as well as claiming it is all just a matter of 'style'. But maybe aging sport climbers will split - a few fighting against via ferratas with the majority deciding they're great fun and surely there's room for everyone's inner fun hog.
An over-reaction? Only time will tell, but so far time has been fairly telling.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona, Spain
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someone needs to bump this so that the next few posts get some visibility. You're welcome
Edit: Shit! Off by 10!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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JStan wrote
"We need, consciously, to leave room for each other.
We don't leave room for others when we feel everyone can change any piece of rock as they damn well please. A society is formed when individuals leave room for each other.
Even apes know that."
John, the tone of this post sounds anti bolt to me and therefore by default anti GU?? please correct me if I am wrong?
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jstan
climber
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Karl:
I don't feel misunderstood at all. "I am not proud, or tired." (As you can tell, I think Arlo Guthrie hit very closely to the essential requirement for being human.) Gosh, even being ignored does not bother me. Besides, I am quite used to that.
What does bother me? To see people failing to rise to their true potential. Tell me people who are able to go god awful distances above their protection just to see if they can do it, are not incredibly able. Go ahead. Tell me. A little disturbed, perhaps. But if it rings their bell, who am I to complain?
So here we have people of that sort who have almost no understanding of how to relate to another person. Now I was in that place once so I have a little understanding. Here is what I can tell you. There is no need for it to be this way. None at all. I will tell you the story of how I made the transition.
In the late sixties all I saw in the Gunks was ever worsening destruction of both the rock and of the vegetation. Right at the start I got really clear with myself that only one thing was important, that the area and the people be supported. Nothing else mattered. Even in the slightest. One bright spring day I put blue ribbons on the laurel so I could stand back to see if trails might possibly protect the vegetation. The next day Richard Petritz and three of his friends who had taken down all the ribbons, came up to me and ripped me a new one asking just what the hell I thought I was doing. I had known unilaterally modifying a shared resource, even momentarily, was the biggest sin a person could commit. I think we all know that. When he let go at me lots of things went through my mind but I was clear I did not want the Gunks to suffer, and so had to respond real time. It popped into my head, "I need to stand in Richard's shoes, NOW." I managed to do that at least partially and over the years I was forgiven my many errors. And there were many. I am very clear that Richard acted as a great supporter of the cliff and of its protection when he and his friends acted as they did. He taught me the most important lesson of my life.
We need to stand in the shoes of our friends and we need to leave room for ALL.
It can be done, and you are the people to do it.
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