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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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sycorax writes:
A widely read person would pose a broader perspective, writing more succinctly and compellingly.
complaining about the narrow view of "the scientists on this thread."
There is no indication that sycorax reads science... her criticism of others seems to ring hollow, she herself, has the very same narrow view from a different perspective.
For myself, Largo had asked about my ideas regarding a description of the universe that did not take place on the stage of space-time, and I complied... apparently no one was very interested in my reply. These ideas are necessarily speculative, as they represent incomplete thoughts on unknown physics. They could be wrong, but that is the beauty of science, the possibility that you could know you are wrong.
Teaching "Sycorax" one never knows... right and wrong are not the question, nor does that knowledge lead to new knowledge, but it might lead to self knowledge.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Ed: . . . that is the beauty of science, the possibility that you could know you are wrong.
Well, that’s an interesting take. I don’t think I’ve yet met a person who relishes or adores the idea that they would know that they could be wrong.
But I could be wrong.
Cheers, Ed. You have noble intentions.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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The science mindset is all about being perfectly clear that you're likely to be wrong based on future data. You go with the model that appears to make the most sense and be the best approximation of observed reality based upon the data you have.
Tomorrow might be different and require you to recalibrate.
Finding out that you've been wrong based on newer and better data is exciting!
You may have to scrap what you'd believed before, but your model will now be a better approximation of reality.
That way of looking at the world is exciting for me. Science is the geeks way of practicing beginner's mind (shoshin).
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Sycorax was talking about me, I believe.
A pretty funny comment for anyone who knows me. Half of my house is full of books, and I've read almost all of them. My wife likes non-fiction more than I do, so I haven't read all of her books.
I thought that I would hate a Kindle, but got a Kindle Paperwhite for Christmas. I told you guys that my whole family is Methodist.
Some of the old philosophy and religious texts are free, or a dollar. I downloaded both the Book of Mormon and the Koran the other day. I have a hard copy of the Koran, but it is lost in the shelves. Anyway, I love my Kindle, and read every night. I really like it. Books are much cheaper, and we don't have any room left for anymore bookshelves. It is a fairly large house, too.
Have you ever read the Koran, Sycorax? The Hadith? I made it about half way through the Koran the last time. A tough read. Definitely violent. So is the Old Testament, though. I vow to finish it this time, but I doubt it will convert me.
I've never made it through the Book of Mormon. I've skimmed through it, and it is just plain weird to me.
Also, we see modern Christians pick and choose their scripture. The Bible warns against wealth several times, but now there is an entire branch of Christianity called "prosperity religion." They ignore all of the crazy laws in Leviticus except for the one about homosexuality.
You have to accept it all. Joel Osteen and his ilk do not do that.
Compared to most scientists, when it comes to reading religious texts, I'm probably more eager. Then again, my boss is Christian and her boss is Jewish. Both are paleontologists who scoff at so-called Creationism.
It just doesn't fit the evidence. Not even close. Religion has my interest in large part because so many people believe it. A strong majority of the planet believes in a deity of some kind.
That does not mean that they are correct.
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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The Death of Humanity in the Spirit World
Humans evolved to dominate
And spiritualism coupled with religion
Was used to explain or dominate
Opposition with derision
Animals they said
Had no soul
That's why humans were superior?
That god only gives eternal life
Unless you are inferior
Women and children
And those diverse
Were brutalized and oppressed
Brother against brother
And citizen against citizen
Subjected to genocide and gassed
The catholic church bargained for survival
When the Nazis had their reign
Looking the other way
As the Jews were sold out and detained
Religion serves the powerful
And the poor use it for a crutch
Criminals use it to gain asylum
As a last resort in a clutch
And when all is said and done
The life that isn't human
Is murdered and destroyed
For the crime of having no voice
While the humans excel
In their mass extinctions
With the methods they've deployed
So here we are on this earth
At the cusp of our own extinction
Forging ahead with false providence
As though we're entitled to the right
To destroy the world and let god sort it out
In a mythical hereafter for after all
What's yours is mine
And what's mine is mine
And god only helps those who help themselves
(Epilogue)
There will be no sign that humans survived
In a likely scenario and potential future
Where the rodents vied
Where our spirits died
The wind blows on a dry lake bed
A lone beetle skitters
Across the hard cracked clay
While minding it's business
As do the birds and bees
On a quiet day
-bushman
05/04/2017
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Largo had asked about my ideas regarding a description of the universe that did not take place on the stage of space-time, and I complied... apparently no one was very interested in my reply. These ideas are necessarily speculative, as they represent incomplete thoughts on unknown physics
I replied on the other thread, Ed. My comments were about the aspect of pregeometry that incorporated measure spaces, and how the concept of measure developed further in the context of rare instances where the Riemann integral doesn't exist. Incidentally, in many instances the Henstock–Kurzweil integral is more general than the Lebesgue integral, and easier to understand.
A set that is non-measurable depends upon the Axiom of Choice and is a very unpleasant creature.
You are so on target about Sycorax. She seems to be one-dimensional, interpreting everything in terms of grammar and literature. Sad.
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WBraun
climber
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LOL ... way too funny DMT ......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Well, that’s an interesting take. I don’t think I’ve yet met a person who relishes or adores the idea that they would know that they could be wrong.
But I could be wrong.
most scientists that I know do... we are wrong most of the time... and know it...
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jogill: . . . Sycorax. She seems to be one-dimensional, interpreting everything in terms of grammar and literature. Sad.
Any sadder than a mathematician or a physicist interpreting the world through numbers or physical phenomena (underscore “phenomena”)? You probably don’t grade writing. I do as a part of what I teach (business strategy). Unclear writing usually indicates unclear thinking and feeling. It’s my view that both need connecting to develop mature human beings.
What seems like one-dimensional is usually a sign of expertise.
Moosedrool:
See also: Hugo Enomiya-LaSalle, “Living in the New Consciousness.” He was a Buddhist zen master and a Jesuit priest. He’d argue with Werner about Christian personification of God versus the impersonal all-being of Zen. A very short but interesting book. It’s known among the cognoscenti as a book that understands the next stage of consciousness for humanity (but not the last). It pisses off both dogmatic buddhists and christians alike.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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You probably don’t grade writing
I haven't graded anything in seventeen years.
What seems like one-dimensional is usually a sign of expertise
True enough, but she only pipes up to comment on or correct statements specifically in her area of expertise. Maybe that's best.
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WBraun
climber
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I haven't graded anything in seventeen years.
But you graded Sycorax today .......:-)
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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In contemporary education, professors evaluate students and students get their revenge by filling out course evaluations.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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What seems like one-dimensional is usually a sign of expertise.
Is that true?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Any sadder than a mathematician or a physicist interpreting the world through numbers or physical phenomena (underscore “phenomena”)?
as a result of that pitiful activity, you are provided an amazing tool with which to level your criticism... so I'm not so sure you are sadder for it, when all is summed up.
As for sycorax, I appreciate when she uses her expertise to expand the discussion, but it is tedious to endure the criticisms of bad writing, bad grammar and bad style all of which I am guilty of. One does not improve without such criticism, of course, but the claim that anyone other than a scientist/mathematician/beaker-boy type achieves impeccable writing skills by nature of taking a high-school english class stretches credulity.
Story telling is important, even for a scientist, but there is the constraint when writing science that there are no unidentified gaps in the logic of the story, the ends do not justify the means, as it were. When reading fictionalized accounts of what passes for "reality" around here, it has been argued that the ends are the only justification of the means, and that those "dusty facts" largely inhibit the "bigger truth" of one's experience. In science we don't have the liberty to tell the lie, and the style of our writing reflects this...
“We all know that Art is not truth. Art is a lie that makes us realize truth at least the truth that is given us to understand. The artist must know the manner whereby to convince others of the truthfulness of his lies.”
interestingly, while this quote is attributed to Pablo Picasso, no one can document the attribution... the irony being, of course, that it may too be "a lie that tells the truth." Does it matter who wrote that?
disclaimer: my use of ellipsis ("...") is largely a laziness of ending sentences which would go on and on, a major stylistic faux pas I have: run on sentences. Were I to have been born in an era of literature for which that style was in vogue, I would probably abandon the use, but there isn't room for more than one Don Quixote, and in most science writing (I have done) sentences are simplified to minimize misinterpretation and misunderstanding.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Werner is one of the more religious people here, but almost every post is angry or downright mean.
I don't tell him that he is full of sh#t, but he says it to me.
On the topic of numbers which exist in the universe, that describe parts of the universe, they are there.
Pi, the Golden Ratio, The Golden Rectangle.
We see them in nature. The Golden Ratio can be converted to a spiral, and we see that all over nature, from the shell of a nautilus to a spiral galaxy.
I'm not arguing that everything can be reduced to numbers, but it is surprising if you look at it.
Have any of you seen the movie "Pi"? It is about a guy who is consumed with finding math in everything. He is pretty crazy, which is part of the story.
A cool indie film. Kind of like Eraserhead.
This is a pretty cool wiki page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patterns_in_nature
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Unclear writing usually indicates unclear thinking and feeling.
I agree completely, but writing is not separable from reading, and good writing requires good criticism.
Institutionally, MikeL is defined as a good critic, he makes the assignments, his students, coerced by the possibility of failing his course, execute the assignments, he reads them and grades them on their "clarity," one wonders if anything good comes from such an exercise.
Much original thinking and feeling is an ongoing process, and is likely to emerge from "unclear" thoughts and feelings, which is to say that the original written works are likely to be unclear.
The process, where the writing is read and criticized, is essential for "clear writing."
To the extent that writing is not clear, we have whole departments of literature devoted to clarification... one wonders if those vaunted authors are so good, why so much work is done demonstrating it. Apparently readers' opinions on clarity are not to be trusted, one has to learn how to be a reader, too.
Perhaps there is much to think about which is not so clear.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Perhaps there is much to think about which is not so clear.
Worth reposting! Is this realm of "that which is not so clear" the realm of exploration, discovery and the "narrow road to the deep north" that ultimately arrives at a point of greater understanding?
On The Golden Ratio...
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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or perhaps your memory recall is messed up by the drugs you're taking...
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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When I enrolled in the school of Geology and Geophysics, it was during the oil boom of the late 70's/early 80's. There were too many students enrolling. The department couldn't handle that many.
The third class was Crystallography and Optical Mineralogy, and it was designed to weed out most of the students. Half were cut from even enrolling based on their ACT scores. Out of the half that survived only half passed with a C or better. I have never encountered such a difficult class, even in graduate classes. The aim was to deliberately fail you. They threw everything at us, and it was very difficult work.
Oil then crashed and most of the students changed majors. There were only about ten of us in my graduating class.
Minerals make up rocks, and part of the definition of a mineral is that it is a crystalline solid. They come in a large variety of crystal habits, all of which can be described geometrically or mathematically. There are a TON of different crystal habits from a cube to habits that you would never guess. There are over 200 possible crystal habits, and then in lab we would identify minerals while looking at thin sections through polarizing microscopes. I assume that it is easier today, because modern microscopes have video cameras, and the lab instructor can show things on the screen. Back then, we had to draw things with colored pencils. Interference patterns..that sort of thing. The lab was insanely difficult. The class had 3 large textbooks, all of which can be found in pretty much every geologist's book case, for reference.
There was no intro class. They threw the whole shebang at us.
Rocks, by definition, are made of minerals, and by definition, a mineral must be a crystalline solid. Ice is then technically a rock, while Obsidian, which is merely basalt which cooled too fast for crystals to grow, is not a mineral. Like glass, it is an amorphous solid.
So the crystals which make up rocks can all be mathematically described, mainly through geometry.
Life also often follows obviously mathematical rules. Mathematics isn't voodoo, nor should it disturb anyone's religion.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Another thing. The chemical compostion of minerals can be super complicated.
When I was in school, there were still a fair number of minerals whose formulas had not yet been discovered, despite all of the tools, like X-ray diffraction.
I'm not sure if they have been solved yet. Most of those minerals were of the oddball variety. Common minerals like Feldspars are well known. Feldspars are a solid solution series.
Even calcium carbonate, limestone, is a solid solution series. Magnesium can replace the calcium. There is calcite, high and low magnesium calcite, and magnesium calcite, which is the mineral dolomite. Even then, their are different varieties of each, depending on the conditions in which they formed. Calcium Carbonate is a vast topic. There are carbonate geologists who do nothing but study carbonate rocks. Clastic sedimentary rocks are composed of clasts (fragments or crystals of weathered parent rocks). It is also its own discipline.
I work with sedimentary rocks, so mineralogy is fairly limited. The biology we see in rocks is normally far more complicated than their mineral composition, but the presence of minerals can tell you a lot about the history of a certain sedimentary rock.
It is all about teasing every bit of information that a rock, or sequence of rocks, can tell you.
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