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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 18, 2010 - 09:03pm PT
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The klan didn't hate good Negroes, just those uppity ones.
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426
climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Aug 18, 2010 - 09:14pm PT
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I am starting to think it is hopeless discussing it with you.
Wes is a big boi and can surely hold his own, but your statement is quite invalid, as you are not "discussing" anything, as your mind will absolutely not be swayed to a more tolerant stance.
You may need to review the preamble..."ensure domestic tranquility" is a good line that you, by your anti-marriage stance are not considering. "Promote the general welfare"..."secure the blessings of liberty...to ourself and our posterity". Most people actually can't recite this tho.
in simpler terms, "who made you the King of England"?
Or in even simpler terms, I like to defer to Hank Sr.
If that link didn't work for you, the song is called "Mind Your Own Business (and you won't be minding mine)".
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 18, 2010 - 09:20pm PT
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Bertrand, you admit that you are not up on the conclusions of psychiatrists
as regards their widespread professional contention that homosexuality
is, for whatever reason, imprinted in the brain of a percentage of the
human population from birth.
In other words, people who study the brain professionally have concluded
the direct opposite that you have.
You believe that people are NOT psychically hard wired to be homosexual,
and that people are "that way" because they made a CHOICE to "become" homosexual.
Bertrand, are you saying you know "more", or "better" about homosexuality
than people whose very professional life is to study the human brain?
Isn't it quite probably that you are flat WRONG, but just will not admit it
because you CHOOSE to believe what you WANT to believe, regardless of
conclusive evidence to the contrary?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Aug 18, 2010 - 10:44pm PT
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Norton sez: You believe that people are NOT psychically hard wired to be homosexual,and that people are "that way" because they made a CHOICE to "become" homosexual.
---
I have asked this various times, and am still waiting for a response: If sexual preference is indeed a "choice," as many here contend that it is, who from the "choice" camp will step forward and share their own experience in choosing to be straight or gay, as it were. Obviously, for the "choice" theory to have any credibility, there has to be someone who has decided on their sexual preference, and I'd love to hear from them. Anyone?
JL
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Aug 18, 2010 - 10:53pm PT
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you admit that you are not up on the conclusions of psychiatrists
as regards their widespread professional contention that homosexuality
is, for whatever reason, imprinted in the brain of a percentage of the
human population from birth.
And I still admit that I am not "up" on the conclusions of psychiatrists. All I said is that I've never seen evidence that anyone is genetically predestined to be gay. A lot of people assume that it's been proven, but I have never seen it. And from what I learned in my admittedly modest education in genetics, there are very few, if any, behavorial dispositions that are 100% established at birth.
Please show me contrary evidence, and cite your source. If you can show that some people are born gay, then I will approve of any gay man marrying any woman he wants to.
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Aug 18, 2010 - 10:56pm PT
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John, I offered earlier that it might be more complicated than a simple choice. Do claustrophic people choose to feel terror in enclosed spaces? I am sure there are lots of factors involved.
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Aug 18, 2010 - 11:08pm PT
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Wes is a big boi and can surely hold his own, but your statement is quite invalid, as you are not "discussing" anything, as your mind will absolutely not be swayed to a more tolerant stance.
False! I love hearing a new argument or insight that I haven't previously considered. Changing one's mind can be a rapturous experience, and Skepti got me to change my mind a little about the relevance of differentiating genetic hardwiring from early environmental hardwiring.
Now let me ask you something, 426. Have you considered tolerance for people who don't think we should change the definition of marriage? Smart, compassionate people can disagree with you without necessarily being "evil" or "hate" mongering, or programmed by "right-wing extremist" media.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 18, 2010 - 11:20pm PT
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Ok Bertrand, let's start with the DNA experts publishing in Science magazine.
"Using sophisticated genetic procedures, similar to those for identification of the CF and MD genes, Dean Hamer and colleagues at the National Institutes of Health, discovered an association between specific DNA markers on the X-chromosome and male sexual orientation.
(This article, entitled "A Linkage Between DNA Markers on the X Chromosome and Male Sexual Orientation" is found in Science 261:321-327[1993].)
The association of specific DNA markers on the X-chromosome and male homosexuality occurs with a greater than 99.9% statistical correlation. It is also maternally inherited, as described above, exactly like hemophilia and color blindness. While the specific gene or genes involved in male sexual orientation has not yet been identified, the correlation is so strong than his data, along with other researchers, firmly establish that male sexual orientation has a strong genetic component. Even though male homosexuality appears to be genetically determined, these data do preclude the involvement other factors, such as environment, biochemistry, hormones, etc., but the genetic aspect is firm. It is anticipated that these data will eventually lead to the identification of a specific gene or genes required for male homosexuality.
http://home.pacbell.net/doninla/homogene.htm
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 18, 2010 - 11:23pm PT
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And here is some more:
THE GENETICS OF HOMOSEXUALITY
Dara Newman
In trying to decide on a topic for this WWW project, it seemed logical to try and focus on a current subject. Homosexuality and homosexual behavior has existed for thousands and thousands of years, probably even before the times of homo-sapiens. However, up until a few years ago, the issue was discussed mostly by people in the social sciences. Psychologists, such as Freud, studied homosexuals extensively in hopes of coming up with an explanation for their "abnormal" behavior. All of the explanations that these people created linked homosexuality to experiences that homosexuals have while growing up. Generally speaking, people in the world of psychology believed that homosexuality could be explained by a person's environment. However, in the past four or five years, the subject of homosexuality has been creeping into the world of biology. Studies have been done recently that attempt to look at homosexuality in a scientific light in hopes of coming up with a genetic explanation for sexual preference.
One of the first successful scientific studies that was done on homosexuality was reported on in 1993. The purpose of this study was to look at families in which there was an abnormally high occurrence of homosexuality. By extensively studying the family histories of these families, researchers hoped to find some clues pointing towards the genetic factors that affect homosexuality. That is exactly what happened. By looking at the family trees of gay males (For some reason, this study only focused on male homosexuality, but made the claim that their findings would be similar to the ones that would be found by looking at female homosexuality. As this paper will discuss later, this assumption that male and female homosexuality can easily be compared may be entirely inaccurate.) it seemed that the majority of homosexual occurrences were on the maternal side of the tree. From this information, researchers concluded that if in fact there was a "homosexual gene", it appeared to be passed down from mother to son. This means that heterosexual females are carriers of this gene, and when it is passed down to a male child, there is a chance that the child will be a homosexual. While this study did not come up with any hard core facts about the genetics of homosexuality, it showed that a connection very well could exist. Since this study did determine that the gene influencing homosexuality was carried by the mother, researchers participating in further studies knew that they could limit their search to the X chromosome, and that is exactly what they did (5).
One of the most influential studies on the genetics of homosexuality was done by Dean Hamer and his co-workers at the National Cancer Institute in Washington DC (1993). Hamer's research involved studying thirty-two pairs of brothers who were either "exclusively or mostly" homosexual. None of the sets of brothers were related. Of the thirty-two pairs, Hamer and his colleagues found that two-thirds of them (twenty-two of the sets of brothers) shared the same type of genetic material. This strongly supports the hypothesis that there is an existing gene that influences homosexuality (4). Hamer then looked closely at the DNA of these gay brothers to try and find the region of the X chromosome (since the earlier research suggested that the gene was passed down maternally) that most of the homosexual brothers shared. He discovered that homosexual brothers have a much higher likelihood of inheriting the same genetic sequence on the region of the X chromosome identified by Xq28, than heterosexual brothers of the same gay men.
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1925
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Aug 18, 2010 - 11:26pm PT
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Biology and sexual orientation
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sexual orientation
Orientations
Asexual · Bisexual · Heterosexual · Homosexual · Pansexual · Polysexual
Gender-based alternative concepts
Human female sexuality · Human male sexuality · Intersexuality · Third sex · Two-Spirit
Research
Biology · Demographics · Environment · Kinsey scale · Klein Grid · Neuroscience · Non-heterosexual · Psychology · Queer studies · Sexology · Timeline of sexual orientation and medicine
Non-human animals:
Homosexual behavior in animals (List)
Category:Sexual orientation
Sexuality portal
This box: view • talk • edit
Biology and sexual orientation is the subject of research into the role of biology in the development of human sexual orientation.
No simple, single cause for sexual orientation has been conclusively demonstrated, but research suggests that it is by a combination of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences,[1] with biological factors involving a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment.[2] Biological factors which may be related to the development of a heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual orientation include genes, prenatal hormones, and brain structure.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Aug 18, 2010 - 11:35pm PT
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Norton (and Largo, and others)
You're wasting your time presenting evidence. The anti-gay crowd are not going to be swayed by evidence. They "know" that homosexuality is a choice made by perverts, and that therefore homosexuals do not deserve the rights enjoyed by heterosexuals.
Whether your evidence is scientific, sociological, psychological, or anecdotal is irrelevant. They "know."
This "knowledge" is, in itself, pretty good evidence... evidence of the equivalence of all fundamentalist religions, be they christian, muslim, hindu, whatever. The preachers say that the holy book and all the profits have spoken. Homos are anathema. End of discussion.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Aug 18, 2010 - 11:55pm PT
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We can go on and on here. So let's cut to the chase.
The real fear of the "choice" camp is that if we "allowed" or condoned gay lifestyles, we would introduce environmental factors that (given how such factors influence our behaviors) might, perforce, turn some of us God-created straight folks into fags. That is, the environment can quite possibly and unwittingly "infect" a straight dood with fruit impulses, and viola, gays will increase exponentially. Conversely, if we snuff out the gay world, gays will decrease in numbers or at any rate they won't increase beyond the percentage of those who themselves are not "naturally" made that way, but instead were unwittingly torqued into unnatural gay behavior through environmental factors, seeming that there is no genetic "proof" that their "condition" is "natural."
JL
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Aug 19, 2010 - 12:14am PT
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TTR, I thought we have been over this. I have no problem with gay people, I try my best never to judge on any broad profile, and I have had a number of friends over the years who I either knew were gay or thought were gay...it's never been an issue. [Edit.] I am very sorry to hear of the loss of your friend.
I am just not sure that same-sex marriage is as much a constitutional right as many here say.
Norton, Wow, that is impressive work. I have to give you credit. If my opinion mattered (which it doesn't) I would have to examine the research to see how critically it was reviewed, before calling it "proof" that a child can be born gay. I would also want to understand this 99.9% correlation between the genomic profile and homosexuality.
For instance, which is the independent variable and which is the dependent variable? Is it that 99%% of the sample of homosexual people had the gene? Or is it that 99% of a random sample people with the gene were homosexual? If the latter, this would be a colossal discovery. If the former, then....not so much. For instance, if the test simply showed that all gay people have a certain gene. Than it is likely that this gene is very common, i.e. that many, if not the majority of people, with the gene are not homosexual. It might merely be that the genetic profile makes a person more inclined to homosexuality than others. A very cool discovery, but not one that suggests 100% causality from genetics. I think I still believe the Wiki definition that it is a mix.
By the way, for those that think I am a hater that won't give up. I guarantee you that none of my friends have heard me discuss this topic. I really don't care that much about it to be honest. I am in this discussion b/c I think it is very interesting, and also b/c I think a lot of the Anti-Prop 8 stuff I see here unfairly demonizes the Prop 8 supporters.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 19, 2010 - 12:18am PT
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I don't understand why anyone has a problem to give the same basic rights to all people, whether I approve of of something or not
I don't think gay marriage is a "basic right". I think you guys abuse that term.
I think deep inside, y'all realize that too, but you're too politically correct to admit it.
But that's just how I see it.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Aug 19, 2010 - 12:22am PT
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The real fear of the "choice" camp is that if we "allowed" or condoned gay lifestyles, we would introduce environmental factors that (given how such factors influence our behaviors) might, perforce, turn some of us God-created straight folks into fags
John, I think it's not so much that straight folks are afraid that condoning the gay lifestyle (whatever that is) will turn them into fags, but rather that if there's no proscription against gayness, then those "straight folks" would have to accept the part of them that is gay.
The irony, of course, is that if there were no stigmata attached to being gay, then accepting your own gayness would be a total non-issue. But as long as the Holy Word is that "Gay = Evil" then their response is to bash the openly gay as a way of bashing themselves.
Edit: Just google "pastor ted" for a perfect example.
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Bertrand
climber
California
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Aug 19, 2010 - 12:34am PT
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if there were no stigmata attached to being gay, then accepting your own gayness would be a total non-issue.
WHAT? Being gay gives you holes in your feet and hands and spear wound in the ribs? Accepting my own gayness would be quite an issue in that case!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Aug 19, 2010 - 12:36am PT
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Largo wrote
I have asked this various times, and am still waiting for a response: If sexual preference is indeed a "choice," as many here contend that it is, who from the "choice" camp will step forward and share their own experience in choosing to be straight or gay, as it were. Obviously, for the "choice" theory to have any credibility, there has to be someone who has decided on their sexual preference, and I'd love to hear from them. Anyone?
Yeah conservative bros. Doesn't it make sense that people who believe you could choose to be gay, must have repressed gay feelings or they couldn't hold that opinion?
Seems pretty logical to me
Peace
Karl
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Aug 19, 2010 - 01:07am PT
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WHAT? Being gay gives you holes in your feet and hands and spear wound in the ribs?
Ah... Sorry. Forgot for a moment that I was dealing with christians. But go to your dictionary and you'll find that the meaning of stigma/stigmata is not limited to the wounds of the christ.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Aug 19, 2010 - 02:41am PT
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I still find the most interesting part of this is the materialist reductionism some favor, insisting that if a genetic marker can be found for homosexuality, then and only then can the whole thing be considered real, genuine, authentic, and so forth. Otherwise, it's just something someone made up in their heads, or a kind of virus they absorbed from the environment, or a default position their psyche concocted owing to a slew of intangible factors.
Curious . . .
JL
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ps
climber
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Aug 20, 2010 - 10:57am PT
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I still find the most interesting part of this is the materialist reductionism some favor, insisting that if a genetic marker can be found for homosexuality, then and only then can the whole thing be considered real, genuine, authentic, and so forth. Otherwise, it's just something someone made up in their heads, or a kind of virus they absorbed from the environment, or a default position their psyche concocted owing to a slew of intangible factors.
Curious . . .
JL
First off, not all "Christians" are conservative rightwing picketing hate-mongers. In fact, I'd say the majority aren't, but unfortunately the most commonly seen because they are so publicly open about there hate. Let's not assume that everyone that follows Christ is the same as these people.
Secondly, I don't think any reasonable person would say that there isn't some sort of genetic involvement, but in my mind the question is how much.
It seems that you, JL, are arguing that the homosexual community has absolutely zero choice involved in their sexuality. If this is true, then how do you explain the fact that there are many homosexuals that have been heterosexual prior, or the even more persuasive argument that there are many people that have come out of a homosexual lifestyle and are now married with kids? Or the bisexual spectrum?
All of these real life cases represent choice to some degree. Are there genetics at play? Sure, why wouldn't their be? Are they to the point where the person has no choice? That doesn't appear to be the case from the evidence in the real world. I'd love to hear your take on these situations JL.
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