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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 20, 2017 - 04:41pm PT
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I didn't claim any of the sort
absolute?? no way
My scientific explanation included the notion of it being relative
Of course it's relative, and changes/evolves...
here is a question, what isn't beautiful?
man made messes = No. 1
Ugly Humans that are not beautiful = No. 2, but this relative in a way, overcome by love
mutations, other gross stuff
almost all of the natural world is beautiful in some way for all tribes
human preferences of what other humans do or look like is different for every tribe
Bonus answer
Trump is not beautiful in any way
he is an ugly human
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c wilmot
climber
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Jun 20, 2017 - 04:46pm PT
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Ugly Humans = No. 2
I hope you are talking figuratively...
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 20, 2017 - 05:31pm PT
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and you will have the same sense of Beauty as all other humans not absolute, only you take it that way
Flowers are beautiful to all humans
as I said above
beauty seems most relative to how a human looks and the human world, and is very tribal
but the natural world beauty is agreed upon almost universally
and once again, what isn't beautiful?
Trump is not beautiful, I can say this with no hypocrisy
he is not of my tribe
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Jun 20, 2017 - 05:35pm PT
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My sense is that humans misunderstood how and why we believe things. IMHO, our ability to believe things is an evolutionary adaptation, probably our most important adaptation. That evolutionary adaptation is not the ability to believe a specific belief (or specific sense of beauty), any more than a specific skin color is the relevant evolutionary adaptation of our skin's melanin. The evolutionary adaptation is more the ability, tendencies, and processes by which we form beliefs, and the ways those beliefs affect our behaviors. The flexibility of our belief processes allows us to adapt to different environments and different sets of incomplete information. Sure, there are commonalities, like that I'm always right :-) and that I'll prefer the information that confirms it. But who knows, maybe we'll be able to transcend that and solve the Israeli - Palestinian conflict, eventually.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Jun 20, 2017 - 06:15pm PT
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I think what you guys don't realize is that when Werner calls you stupid, it's probably for your own good!
Fair enough. I accept that that might be true.
But ... he posted, without quotations, that "without mathematics modern science can not exist" And then, when called on it, he said that he didn't say it - someone else (Penrose) said it. It wasn't his speculation - he was just repeating what someone else said. And that by repeating this speculation in a post as his own, unattributed to the source, he wasn't speculating or endorsing this speculation (he was just speaking truth, based on his special relationship with the truth). And if Ed thought that he was the one who was speculating, or that Penrose was speculating, well that was Ed's problem, and doesn't reflect on him (Werner), or his beliefs, and his speculations. (He just believes truth.)
And that's all from altruism - so that we can enjoy the benefits of his awesome understanding of truth?
I'm not all that bright or perceptive or in tune with human nature, but to me, it smacks of perhaps a little ego, and possibly not a totally inhuman inegotistical evaluation of the available information.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 20, 2017 - 06:23pm PT
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An active brain area does not an aesthetic experience make.
Beauty is celebrated and promoted, admired, extoled far beyond any evolutionary source, and our understanding of it is found in those that can produce it in the arts and in those who are able to critique it.
That an area of the brain lights up in the course of such an experience is so far from understanding the experience as to be laughable.
Myth, like great poetry and great music and great art, communicates something entirely real that is easily and immediately understood by the observer. These experiences are often enlightening and profoundly moving and the truths they hold are as vital as anything in science.
My suggestion: an art appreciation class.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Jun 20, 2017 - 06:30pm PT
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An active brain does not an aesthetic experience make.
Huh. That's some great knowledge you've created and believed there! Does an active brain create an aroused sexual experience, or is that better understood by myth, and unrelated to evolution, too?
That an area of the brain lights up in the course of such an experience is so far from understanding the experience as to be laughable.
Right? I so appreciate the humility of human belief processes in light of our ununderstanding of reality.
But fortunately, humans are growth learners. Heck, maybe that's an evolutionary adaption!
They laughed at the Wright brothers too :-) But IMHO the ones doing the laughing, and believing they already understand, and believing that they're already right, often find themselves wondering why they were wrong in the end.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 20, 2017 - 06:38pm PT
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Next question
why would any human not appreciate beauty or art?
are there examples of these humans
of course some don't appreciate all art,
some art is only appreciated by a select few
but almost all humans appreciate natural beauty
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jun 20, 2017 - 06:50pm PT
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"My suggestion: an art appreciation class."
Been there done that, along with two years as a philosophy major and four years at small liberal arts college.
Change to science and since that day always answered the questions I was asking.
Different for you, that just how my mind works.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Jun 20, 2017 - 07:05pm PT
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Right? What exactly is it that happens when you take an art appreciation class? The way that psychiatrists describe psychotherapy is that it's talk that changes the brain, but maybe art therapy works differently.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 20, 2017 - 07:07pm PT
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Been there done that, along with two years as a philosophy major and four years at small liberal arts college.
Yeah, you might want to repeat that.
Right? What exactly is it that happens when you take an art appreciation class? The way that psychiatrists describe psychotherapy is that it's talk that changes the brain, but maybe art therapy works differently.
Well, you might learn something.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Jun 20, 2017 - 07:09pm PT
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Yeah, you might want to repeat that.
Exactly. The way to determine whether art therapy "works" or not is whether it produces the "correct" results. And by correct, I mean what I believe.
Well, you might learn something.
Thanks Paul. So much to learn. One thing I've learned is that sometimes we learn to believe things that aren't true.
The melanin in my daughter's skin produces a much darker color than the melanin in my skin. Our skin color creation processes are the same, but our skin colors are different. But our skin colors are both "true" - they're both "right."
But beliefs are different. We might use the same belief processes, but when they produce different results, one of those results might be right (true) and the other wrong (false).
But we have incomplete information - the best we can do is the best we can do, right or wrong. Logic and science are just tools to help us figure out which is which.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jun 20, 2017 - 07:10pm PT
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Paul wrote: Yeah, you might want to repeat that.
I see what it has done to you...no thanks.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 20, 2017 - 07:22pm PT
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Thanks Paul. So much to learn. One thing I've learned is that sometimes we learn to believe things that aren't true.
Yeah thanks, I already got that from your previous posts.
I see what it has done to you...no thanks.
Never took it myself.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Jun 20, 2017 - 07:29pm PT
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Thanks Paul. Meaning what I've learned to believe isn't true?
I thought it was the science types who's unique argument was "you're wrong." :-) Unique has a unique meaning that I expect non-science types have an inside track on understanding. Heck, I'll bet even the science types understand what you said.
Maybe even why you said it. White folks like us have to deal with the assault on the concept of our human exceptionalism at the same time that we're dealing with the assault on our white exceptionalism.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 20, 2017 - 07:41pm PT
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I thought it was the science types who's unique argument was "you're wrong." :-)
Yep, you're absolutely right.
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Jun 20, 2017 - 07:41pm PT
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Thank God for Richard Dawkins.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jun 20, 2017 - 07:45pm PT
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^^^^^ funny.
"The melanin in my daughter's skin produces a much darker color than the melanin in my skin. Our skin color creation processes are the same, but our skin colors are different. But our skin colors are both "true" - they're both "right." '
Where are you going with this??? Who said your color was wrong?
"The melanin in my daughter's skin produces a much darker color than the melanin in my skin"
There is a scientific explanation for this....you know that right?
"Skin color is due primarily to the presence of a pigment called melanin , which is controlled by at least 6 genes. Both light and dark complexioned people have melanin. However, two forms are produced--pheomelanin , which is red to yellow in color, and eumelanin , which is dark brown to black."
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jun 20, 2017 - 07:58pm PT
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Your hearts know in silence the secrets of the days and the nights.
But your ears thirst for the sound of your heart's knowledge.
You would know in words that which you have always known in thought.
You would touch with your fingers the naked body of your dreams.
And it is well you should.
The hidden well-spring of your soul must needs rise and run murmuring to the sea;
And the treasure of your infinite depths would be revealed to your eyes.
But let there be no scales to weigh your unknown treasure;
And seek not the depths of your knowledge with staff or sounding line.
For self is a sea boundless and measureless.
Say not, "I have found the truth," but rather, "I have found a truth."
Say not, "I have found the path of the soul." Say rather, "I have met the soul walking upon my path."
For the soul walks upon all paths.
The soul walks not upon a line, neither does it grow like a reed.
The soul unfolds itself like a lotus of countless petals.
Kahlil Gibran
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