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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 21, 2015 - 01:12pm PT
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I guess the easy way would be to inflate our way out of it.
Just a regressive tax on the poor
I've always assumed that inflation is the exit strategy for paying the debt when interest rates reach normal levels. At today's interest rates, we have been financing the debt by a net tax on savings. If we inflate to pay the debt, we will finance the debt by a net tax on those investing in long-term debt instruments prior to the inflation, and those on truly fixed incomes. Initially, inflation also affects the poor relying on government payments, because it takes about a year for increases in benefits to catch up to increases in prices. After that, though, a general inflation does not affect the poor much one way or another.
A general inflation also leads to a tax increase unless brackets remain pegged to some inflation measure, because of the increasing marginal tax rates.
I do agree with John M's "out of sight, out of mind" hypothesis. I think it was Mad Magazine several decades ago that produced a prototypical budget pie, with the portion dedicated to interest on national debt intentionally made unreadable. They explained that all competent budget pie diagrams do this to try to hide the extent to which the current budget pays for past borrowing.
Those who follow The Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy series of books will recognize an SEP [someone else's problem] field at work. I believe the SEP field, as an invisibility tool, first appears in Life, The Universe, and Everything, but I won't have the books in front of me before this evening.
John
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2015 - 01:48pm PT
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Oh, hey. Here's a shocker. He's a 55 year old white Trump supporter.
Can someone please explain why white culture keeps churning out these hateful, violent people? Why can't Republicans speak out against Radical White Extremism? Stop the political correctness!
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John M
climber
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Dec 21, 2015 - 02:28pm PT
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John E, I have seen different numbers for servicing the national debt. 7-10 percent of yearly budget just goes to paying interest. Imagine if we paid off the majority of the debt and then claimed a 5 percent across the board tax cut. 10 years to do it.
Thats the kind of thing I wish politicians were talking about.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 21, 2015 - 02:31pm PT
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Can someone please explain why white culture keeps churning out these hateful, violent people? Why can't Republicans speak out against Radical White Extremism? Stop the political correctness!
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2015 - 02:39pm PT
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TGT- That's literally a Republican, Christian, multi-millionaire businessman.
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Norton
Social climber
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Dec 21, 2015 - 03:04pm PT
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and why the concern about the national debt?
Both Republican controlled House and Senate just passed a one trillion dollar spending bill
Republicans have controlled the congressional spending arm, the House, since 2010
where is the wailing and wringing of hands and finger pointing at all this irresponsible
spending the Republicans have been doing?
where is the anguish, the rage, at the Republicans for running up the national debt?
yeah, they "own" spending and the debt
just like they "own" the collapse and recession of the US economy
tell me again, why do YOU vote Republican?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 21, 2015 - 04:10pm PT
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Am I really the only one who can't get over how well TGT just set me up there? I mean damn.
Norton- In their defense, the Freedom Caucus is so vehemently anti-debt that they would happily just defund anything that isn't the military to eliminate the debt. It's a really stupid platform but it's fairly consistent. It's what has made it so hard for "regular order" to proceed until this current omnibus budget sailed through the House greased on the skids of tax cuts for all the right people with no payfors at all.
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Jorroh
climber
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Dec 21, 2015 - 04:38pm PT
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Hi Craig
As usual the funding package was filled with all sorts of extra BS from the republicans.
A really bad example being that corporations now don't have to disclose or justify their political donations to their owners.
Essentially allowing corporate executives to indulge their political preferences at the expense of the owners of the company, without the owners having any say or, in practical terms, recourse.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Dec 21, 2015 - 05:01pm PT
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.... And all it cost was two trillion dollars.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 21, 2015 - 05:35pm PT
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 22, 2015 - 05:30am PT
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Lorenzo posted .... And all it cost was two trillion dollars.
I believe it added something like $700 billion to the deficit (almost entirely tax cuts).
Politifact was so overwhelmed with the sheer breadth and depth of lies that they couldn't pick one and decided to honor Trump's entire body of work with the "Lie of the Year" designation.
2015 Lie of the Year: the campaign misstatements of Donald Trump
Trump has "perfected the outrageous untruth as a campaign tool," said Michael LaBossiere, a philosophy professor at Florida A&M University who studies theories of knowledge. "He makes a clearly false or even absurdly false claim, which draws the attention of the media. He then rides that wave until it comes time to call up another one."
PolitiFact has been documenting Trump’s statements on our Truth-O-Meter, where we’ve rated 76 percent of them Mostly False, False or Pants on Fire, out of 77 statements checked. No other politician has as many statements rated so far down on the dial.
In considering our annual Lie of the Year, we found our only real contenders were Trump’s -- his various statements also led our Readers’ Poll. But it was hard to single one out from the others. So we have rolled them into one big trophy.
To the candidate who says he’s all about winning, PolitiFact designates the many campaign misstatements of Donald Trump as our 2015 Lie of the Year.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Dec 22, 2015 - 06:09am PT
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From January 2010
When the CBO issued its projections for Obama's budget in June 2009, it projected that the national debt would double to $11.7 trillion by 2019 if its pre-Obama baseline economic assumptions were held steady for 10 years. A more recent CBO baseline projection from this month puts the national debt at $14.3 trillion in 2019 and $15.0 trillion in 2020.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 22, 2015 - 06:19am PT
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Ed, provide a link. Those numbers make no sense. The national debt in September of 2008 was already $10 trillion. How would it have "doubled" to reach $11 trillion in 9 years? If those other numbers are correct then they are projecting a budget surplus because the debt is currently $18 trillion.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Dec 22, 2015 - 06:54am PT
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John E was talking about inflation and the series of books from Douglas Adams.
“Since we decided a few weeks ago to adopt the leaf as legal tender, we have, of course, all become immensely rich. But we have also," continued the management consultant, "run into a small inflation problem on account of the high level of leaf availability, which means that, I gather, the current going rate has something like three deciduous forests buying a ship's peanut."
"So in order to obviate this problem," he continued, "and effectively revalue the leaf, we are about to embark on a massive defoliation campaign, and...er, burn down all the forests. I think you'll all agree that's a sensible move under the circumstances.”
Douglas Adams,
The Hitchhikers Guide to The Galaxy
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 22, 2015 - 12:01pm PT
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http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/22/africa/kenya-bus-attack-al-shabaab-muslim-christians/index.html
Muslims shield Christians when Al-Shabaab attacks bus in Kenya
In the Monday attack, the gunmen ordered Muslim passengers to come out of the bus and separate themselves from the Christians.
There were more than 100 passengers on board.
The Muslim passengers refused.
They gave the Christian women their hijabs and helped others hide behind bags in the bus, passenger Abdiqafar Teno told CNN.
"They told them, 'If you want to kill us, then kill us. There are no Christians here," he said.
A Christian man who tried to run away was captured and shot dead, Teno said. The driver of a truck, which was trailing the bus, was also killed.
The gunmen left, but warned they would return.
Nkaissery, the interior cabinet secretary, told reporters security forces were in "hot pursuit of the criminals."
Then he commended the actions of the Muslim passengers.
"We are all Kenyans, we are not separated by religion," he said. "We are one people as a nation. And this is a very good message from my brothers and sisters from the Muslim community."
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dirtbag
climber
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Dec 22, 2015 - 12:56pm PT
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I watched the democratic debate last Saturday. It's too bad that they haven't been broadcasted when more people are available to watch them. It's refreshing to see adult conversations about serious issues, in contrast to the two-hour "bomb Agrabah" drivel the republicans spewed last Tuesday.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Dec 22, 2015 - 01:14pm PT
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dirt, if the GOP candidates started talking detailed policy like the Dem's their crowd would tune out and watch Dancing With the Stars or MMA.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 22, 2015 - 01:19pm PT
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I watched the democratic debate last Saturday. It's too bad that they haven't been broadcasted when more people are available to watch them.
If you think that's accidental, I know of a bridge for sale. The last thing the frontrunner needs is people getting a chance to see more of her opponents.
The fatuous questions the Republicans get asked -- and the softballs pitched to Hillary Clinton -- did not happen accidentally, either. As long as they can distract the race with the realty TV personality, Hillary's Super PAC - aka the mainstream media -- believe they further her chances.
John
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Dec 22, 2015 - 01:34pm PT
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Oh, brother. When Hillary's e-mail fake scandal was all the news, it led the news, day after day for months. She couldn't order a burrito bowl at Chipotle without being criticized. The media would still be hounding her if Trump hadn't come along saying something stupid every day. Another huge overreach, John.
Obviously, a frontrunner wants less debates. It's politics, there's no prize for 2nd place.
These are the primaries, there will be plenty later in the general election.
Softballs? Hardly.
RADDATZ: Secretary Clinton, in the wake of the San Bernardino attack, you all emphasized gun control. But our latest poll shows that more Americans believe arming people, not stricter gun laws, is the best defense against terrorism. Are they wrong?
CLINTON: Well, I think you have to look at both the terrorism challenge that we face abroad and certainly at home and the role that guns play in delivering the violence that stalks us. Clearly, we have to have a very specific set of actions to take. You know, when Senator Sanders talks about a coalition, I agree with him about that. We’ve got to build a coalition abroad. We also have to build a coalition at home. Abroad, we need a coalition that is going to take on ISIS. I know how hard that is. I know it isn’t something you just hope people will do and I’ve worked on that…
RADDATZ: Secretary Clinton, can we stick to gun control?
CLINTON: Yes, I’m getting…
RADDATZ: Are they wrong?
CLINTON: … I’m getting to that. Because I think if you only think about the coalition abroad you’re missing the main point, which is we need a coalition here at home. Guns, in and of themselves, in my opinion, will not make Americans safer. We lose 33,000 people a year already to gun violence, arming more people to do what I think is not the appropriate response to terrorism.
I think what is…
(APPLAUSE)
Is creating much deeper, closer relations and, yes, coalitions within our own country. The first line of defense against radicalization is in Muslim-American community. People who we should be welcoming and working with.
I worry greatly that the rhetoric coming from the Republicans, particularly Donald Trump, is sending a message to Muslims here in the United States and literally around the world that there is a “clash of civilizations,” that there is some kind of Western plot or even “war against Islam,” which then I believe fans the flames of radicalization.
So guns have to be looked at as its own problem, but we also have to figure out how we’re going to deal with the radicalization here in the United States.
RADDATZ: Secretary Clinton, you too have ruled out a large U.S. combat force, yet you support sending in special operations forces to Syria, and sending those 100 to 200 troops to Iraq to do exploitation kill raids.
We’ve already lost one Delta Force member in a raid. It has looked very much to me like we’re already in ground combat on frequent trips I’ve made there.
So, are you fooling Americans when you say, we’re not putting American combat troops back into Syria or Iraq?
CLINTON: No. Not at all. I think that what we’re facing with ISIS is especially complicated. It was a different situation in Afghanistan. We were attacked from Afghanistan. Al Qaida was based in Afghanistan. We went after those who had attacked us.
What’s happening in Syria and Iraq is that, because of the failures in the region, including the failure of the prior government in Baghdad, led by Maliki, there has been a resurgence of Sunni activities, as exemplified by ISIS. And we have to support Sunni-Arab and Kurdish forces against ISIS, because I believe it would be not only a strategic mistake for the United States to put ground combat troops in, as opposed to special operators, as opposed to trainers, because that is exactly what ISIS wants.
RADDATZ: Secretary Clinton, I want to circle back to something that your opponents here have brought up. Libya is falling apart. The country is a haven for ISIS and jihadists with an estimated 2,000 ISIS fighters there today. You advocated for that 2011 intervention and called it smart power at its best. And yet, even President Obama said the U.S. should have done more to fill the leadership vacuum left behind. How much responsibility do you bear for the chaos that followed elections?
CLINTON: Well, first, let’s remember why we became part of a coalition to stop Gadhafi from committing massacres against his people. The United States was asked to support the Europeans and the Arab partners that we had and we did a lot of due diligence about whether we should or not, and eventually, yes, I recommended and the president decided that we would support the action to protect civilians on the ground and that led to the overthrow of Gadhafi.
I think that what Libya then did by having a full free election, which elected moderates, was an indication of their crying need and desire to get on the right path. Now, the whole region has been rendered unstable, in part because of the aftermath of the Arab Spring, in part because of the very effective outreach and propagandizing that ISIS and other terrorist groups do.
RADDATZ: Let me ask you the question again. How much responsibility do you bear for the chaos that followed those elections?
CLINTON: Martha, we offered a lot more than they were willing to take. We offered a lot more. We also got rid of their chemical weapons, which was a big help, and we also went after a lot of the shoulder-fired missiles to round them up. You know, we can’t — if we’re not going to send American troops, which there was never any idea of doing that, then to try to send trainers, to try to send experts, is something we offered, Europeans offered, the U.N. offered, and there wasn’t a lot of responsiveness at first.
I think a lot of the Libyans who had been forced out of their country by Gadhafi who came back to try to be part of a new government, believed they knew what to do and it turned out that they were no match for some of the militaristic forces inside that country. But Im not giving up on Libya and I don’t think anybody should. We’ve been at this a couple of years.
RADDATZ: But were mistakes made?
CLINTON: Well, there’s always a retrospective to say what mistakes were made. But I know that we offered a lot of help and I know it was difficult for the Libyans to accept help. What we could have done if they had said yes would have been a lot more than what we were able to have done.
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