Coordinated attacks ongoing in France

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crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
Nov 20, 2015 - 10:43am PT

Munge Climber
Nov 20, 2015 - 10:39am PT
Everyone avoids the question of getting good intel to make targeted strikes.

Not everyone, munge

Hillary, yesterday:

Let me start with the campaign to defeat ISIS across the region. The United States and our international coalition has been conducting this fight for more than a year. It’s time to begin a new phase and intensify and broaden our efforts to smash the would-be caliphate and deny ISIS control of territory in Iraq and Syria.

That starts with a more effective coalition air campaign, with more allies’ planes, more strikes, and a broader target set. A key obstacle standing in the way is a shortage of good intelligence about ISIS and its operations. So we need an immediate intelligence surge in the region, including technical assets, Arabic speakers with deep expertise in the Middle East, an even closer partnership with regional intelligence services.

The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 20, 2015 - 10:54am PT
First Target (head shot with a 20mm HE round ONLY) should be this mother fker..





You really want to contain these fks, give Devgru Six and Delta and "Open Season" "E" ticket orders as they were originally implemented for and let them go at it.


EDIT:

Anyone here wonder why ISIS will NOT touch Israel?


The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 20, 2015 - 11:12am PT
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 20, 2015 - 11:12am PT
The Chief.

I do my homework. Do yours.

You named the Mossad and US Navy Seals, both small scale, covert to relatively covert operatives. You could also have used the Vietnam era Phoenix program as a great example of an effective, covert program (that we bailed out of for chicken-crap political reasons).

But the FFL 13th Demi Brigade (not demi regiment, which is what you called it in an earlier post) is primarily a conventional military unit, not a covert unit like the others that you've compared it to. It's also not small scale. So your comparison is off (Remember, apples and oranges.)

The 13th is an elite unit, but send in the whole battalion and it's not covert, it's conventional (and I call it a battalion because, designations aside, that's what it amounts to).

So how is it to start "terminating and containing these azzholes" as you put it, when a unit like that operates in a conventional role? Is the FFL somehow better at sorting out "civilians" from combatants than the Marines were in Iraq? Better than the US Army was in Afghanistan? Or, maybe the FFL has learned from it's failed anti-guerilla role in what was then French Indo-China up to 1954?

Your proposed solution, The Chief was to send in conventional units (you named them). You back up that solution by citing to non-conventional units that were effective. You should know better.

Did you misspeak? Did you intend only parts of the FFL to go in and to work covertly? And if the latter, how can low-scale covert work solve a much larger problem (tens of thousands of really bad guys)?

mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 20, 2015 - 11:14am PT
Which one is it, The Chief, small scale, asassination-like ops (which I think is great idea - one remarkably similar to what President Obama's been doing with drones), or put in the real, large, conventional units that you specifically named?
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 20, 2015 - 11:26am PT
See, The Chief, there are two reasons why so many people in Supertopo-land hold you in contempt.

1. You comment and post like you and you alone know the solutions to these real world problems. You act like the solutions are obvious and easy. But when pressed you can't come up with a solution that works; you can't even get you own solutions straight as between types of military action.

2. Meanwhile your know-it-all comments to others are snarky and drippingly sarcastic. You hold our President in contempt, even though you can't come up with a solution any better than what he's been doing (you want the Mossad, etcetera to do what Obama's already been doing with drones). And attacking/being condescending to Susan? Really? That's just really, really hopeless.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 20, 2015 - 11:26am PT
The 13th is an elite unit, but send in the whole battalion and it's not covert, it's conventional (and I call it a battalion because, designations aside, that's what it amounts to).

Odd, ALL covert Ops need a full team of "support" behind them. That includes ALL factions of specially jointly trained "conventional" resources attached to them "Covert" Operators unit. Something of which I was directly a part of for over three years (HC-8 & HCS-5).

Big time DUH!


Which one is it, The Chief, small scale, asassination-like ops (which I think is great idea - one remarkably similar to what President Obama's been doing with drones), or put in the real, large, conventional units that you specifically named?

They have of course, "contained" the Bad Guys? Right Mtnyoung.

You comment and post like you and you alone know the solutions to these real world problems. You act like the solutions are obvious and easy. But when pressed you can't come up with a solution that works;

Negative. I just post solutions that YOU and others here do NOT like to hear nor read. They are NOT my solutions. Rather those of which I partook in on many occasions that actually worked WHEN the ROE's were not governed and monitored by civilians back in DC.
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 20, 2015 - 11:37am PT
Keep dancing The Chief.

Which one is it, small scale, asassination-like ops, or put in the real, large, conventional units that you specifically named?

Look, I fully admit that I don't know the solutions here.

But you won't admit that. You've described doing apples and then used oranges as an example.

Can you clearly and simply describe which one you prefer?

mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 20, 2015 - 11:41am PT
And, BTW, in case it isn't clear, I think President Obama is doing a great job. He's keeping us out of a total f#$%ng quagmire.

As another subject, why should the US be the world's policemen? I say keep our troops out of quagmires unless we're willing to change the rules of engagment so that they can be effective (and the whole western world has to agree that the rules of engagement are different).

Maybe we don't go back to leveling whole cites like we did in WWII (and clearly the bad guys - the Japanese and the Germans - fully set that train in motion then). But I never, ever want US troops in harm's way when, as I said up-post, they have to act as detective, investigator, district attorney and judge all before they can switch their guns off from "safety."
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 20, 2015 - 11:42am PT
Dancing and Admit what MTNyoung.

How can I be "wrong" if what I suggest be implemented has NOT even been tried in this scenario against ISIS.

I say allow the "units" that were designed and originally implemented to go do their jobs WITHOUT any restrictions that civilian "security" experts pos'd some six thousand miles away in some cozzy air cond room full of statistical modeling computers telling them what could or could not happen, impose on them.

We all know how well that worked on the 13th of Sept 2012.

EDIT:

BTW, let the "Teams", NOT OBAMA, that took down Bin Laden, go to work.



And, BTW, in case it isn't clear, I think President Obama is doing a great job. He's keeping us out of a total f#$%ng quagmire.

Let's see how you feel in the near future after that "quagmire" comes here to the US. Because it will.

mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 20, 2015 - 11:49am PT
mtnyoung:


I say keep our troops out of quagmires unless we're willing to change the rules of engagment so that they can be effective (and the whole western world has to agree that the rules of engagement are different).

Maybe we don't go back to leveling whole cites like we did in WWII (and clearly the bad guys - the Japanese and the Germans - fully set that train in motion then). But I never, ever want US troops in harm's way when, as I said up-post, they have to act as detective, investigator, district attorney and judge all before they can switch their guns off from "safety."



The Chief:



I say allow the "units" that were designed and originally implemented to go do their jobs WITHOUT any restrictions that civilian "security" experts pos'd some six thousand miles away in some cozzy air cond room full of statistical modeling computers telling them what could or could not happen, impose on them.


OK, not so different on this subject are we?

And I do not maintain that you are "wrong." Quote me all you want, but I don't think you've been "wrong."

I do think that you've been terribly inconsistent and simplistic.

All while being a jerk about it.

The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 20, 2015 - 11:53am PT
I am glad that you are voicing your opinion MTNYOUNG. At least you are in a nation that you are free to do so without getting your head cut off.


Oh, and as I see it, which doesn't mean jackshet to many here for a simple same reason, you will go along with anything that does not entail getting us involved in a "quagmire". That is of course until the "quagmire" hits home. Then, the finger pointing will begin and of course it will all be GW's fault.


"jerk"... I thought I was a "rabid dog"? WTF!

mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 20, 2015 - 11:55am PT


Let's see how you feel in the near future when that "quagmire" comes here to the US. Because it will.


And it has.

And our reaction - putting US soldiers in harms way and limiting their actions to the point of inanity did not work. We "solved" nothing.

Look, I'm not in favor of wholesale slaughter. But, as I said above, people that think there's a bright line between civilians and combatants are nuts.

The West may come to recognize this. They may - of brutal, brutal necessity - recognize, for example, the horrible, impossible job that the Israeli's have in trying to make a distinction on this subject where one doesn't clearly exist (all while being arm-chair quarterbacked by the Europeans).

Until the West makes such a change (and they may never do so), I don't want our soldiers put into an impossible situation.





mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 20, 2015 - 11:57am PT


"jerk"... I thought I was a "rabid dog"? WTF!


You're a bit of both. And you don't listen/read well either. With your past I would expect different.

But hey, here I am engaging with you on a subject that perplexes me too.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 20, 2015 - 12:06pm PT
.... putting US soldiers in harms way and limiting their actions to the point of inanity did not work. We "solved" nothing.

Obviously YOU have NOT read my last four posts. "WE". No, the civilians that limited those warrior professionals actions. Had they been allowed to do what they know best, "we" most certainly would not be in the "quagmire" we are in now.

Fact.

I know all about being "limited" first hand. Trust me. I deal with it daily! 3-4 Oct 2003.


EDIT:

And you don't listen/read well either.

To who? People here on the retardnet/ST?

Got it.

mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 20, 2015 - 12:10pm PT


Then, the finger pointing will begin and of course it will all be GW's fault.


Bush the Second was a horrible president. Horrible for the environment, for the budget, and for the middle class in our country.

He was also horrible at foreign policy.

But people who blame him (alone) for what's going on in the Middle East have a very, very shallow understanding of world history, of human nature, and of the history of that region.

What's going on there now has hundreds of causes over hundreds and hundreds of years. Mix in a fair amount of human nature. There's blame enough to be spread far and wide.

But then again, does blaming change the reality there on the ground now?


10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired Climber
Nov 20, 2015 - 12:11pm PT
Susan,
Hoh man!! I just spilled my Supertopo koolaid all over my keyboard.

hahahahahahaha.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 20, 2015 - 12:16pm PT
I think we need fattrad's input on this thread. My latest note from him, as of this morning:

"A clash of civilizations. 'Je suis Charles Martel.'"

John
mtnyoung

Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
Nov 20, 2015 - 12:20pm PT


I know all about being "limited" first hand. Trust me. I deal with it daily! 3-4 Oct 2003.



I absolutely believe you. And I think it's unfair and stupid to put soldiers (and sailors in your case) into such situations.




Obviously YOU have NOT read my last four posts. "WE". No, the civilians that limited those warrior professionals actions. Had they been allowed to do what they know best, "we" most certainly would not be in the "quagmire" we are in now.


Oh no, I've read your posts.

And what I've quoted above scares me.

What you said (in quotes right above) looks to me like: "civilians don't know sh#t and the military should be cut loose/freed to "solve" problems as it sees fit."

Correct me if I'm misinterpreting what you said.

And what about the US Constitution? What about civilian control of the military?

You've read Clausewitz, right? He was right when he said that "war is the continuation of politics by other means." War doesn't happen in a vacuum. Fighting isn't the only type of human conflict or interaction.

I think that our Constitution is a great document. Among it's ingenious provisions is that for civilian control over the military.

Let's not change that. But let's not put our warriors into impossible situations either; situations where they have to make impossible distinctions and must make no-win choices (sounds like you've been exactly there).




Fact.


Nope. Just your opinion.

The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 20, 2015 - 12:25pm PT
So MTNyoung...

You think Obama has done a great job keeping us out of the quagmire, right. That GW was a shetwad president and his foreign policy sucked.

But not peep about Bill Clinton who did NOTHING in Bosnia (until severely pressured by the UN to get involved) nor the Congo and kept us out of those two quagmires. All the while well over 2.2 million if not more were slaughtered in both of those of those countries combined.

Amazingly, I do not remember he ever demanding that we take in large scale amounts of the millions of displaced refugees in a show of compassion from either nation.

Talk about partisan bs on your part.


EDIT!
"civilians don't know sh#t and the military should be cut loose/freed to "solve" problems as it sees fit."

Solve as they see fit the problems that the civilians sent them to go fix without them civilians that haven't any first hand clue as to what is needed to fix it. Makes logical sense to me.

But apparently not you, MTNyoung.

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