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Degaine
climber
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Sep 25, 2013 - 07:18am PT
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Thanks for the reply, Largo. You wrote:
I didn't address this because the topic of this thread is VERY specific, and concerns old run out face climbs that were on-sighted, ground up on the FA, and where the first ascent party attempted to limit the bolts for several reasons including, A) bolts were considered a last resort protection option AT THAT TIME, and B) trying to climb with less pro was an exciting game that gave the leaders a sense of mastery.
The OP was actually very general, and the thread remained more or less general for a couple of pages. Those from your generation decided to narrow the discussion to a small sliver of climbs.
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Johannsolo
climber
Soul Cal
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Sep 25, 2013 - 10:32am PT
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Midnight lumber variation, Suicide would be nothing as a clip up. I will lead it.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Sep 25, 2013 - 10:51am PT
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In the end, we are the measure of our desire. How we fill the emptiness, that is our legend. How empty are the legends, that is the wind. ~DP
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sep 25, 2013 - 12:13pm PT
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And you might have a point if I were claiming there should be no scary climbs left. I'm not. I'm just stating that there's too many of them that would otherwise better serve the community as reasonably safe - and even those could still be scary, if you skipped the clips or free-soloed them.
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I agree. But no mater how I say it, I am "arrogant" for being frank. So be it. The question is - You have been a fervent proponent of the quote above, that the old museum climbs would be "better served" as user-friendly routes. What are you, Joe Hedge, willing to do to put your idea to work. Or are you also just sounding off? Like a mosquito hovering over the conversation.
Again, I suggest starting with both Black Primo and the Bachar Yerian. Bolts every 10 feet on both of them. Or however you see fit to bolt these up. Again, I'm not telling you how many bolts to put in, just suggesting to go on the heavy side and as mentioned by you and many others, if folks want to taste a little of the original fire, they can just skip a few clips here and there and get their Bachar on. The main thing is to prove your sincerity as something other than just some blowhard spewing what you don't honestly believe. And what we believe, we ALWAYS act on if at all possible.
Who is willing to put their actions where they words are?
JL
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Sep 25, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
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Definitely rename it. I'll stop by later with a can of spray paint and spray, JB RIP.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Sep 25, 2013 - 12:43pm PT
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All bolting threads end up with claims that the B/Y will be grid bolted.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Sep 25, 2013 - 12:49pm PT
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I think it will happen. Not saying that it's right, but tens of millions of people live within weekend striking distance of almost all of the routes relevant to this thread. In a hundred years no one will give a sh#t about the FA.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Sep 25, 2013 - 01:12pm PT
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For every BY that endures another 1000 routes will be forgotten and lost.
^ that.
while patrick belays
I only do traditional hip belay, but I haz a big a$$ so it's safe
And to fully re-create the moment in time, I only smoke Mexi weed while belaying, not that 20% THC sporto, gym stuff they have now.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Sep 25, 2013 - 01:27pm PT
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so why hasn't it been chopped?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 25, 2013 - 01:58pm PT
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Ron wrote: I think we have a team right here Largo! Bob can bring the bolts (obviously) and hedge can lead while patrick belays.. Los Tres Amigos will be the new name of the route...A 5.11 Multi pitch route with a total of 59 bolts!
Only when you take you mouth off of JL unit. God you are an emotional wreck.
Dave Roberts nailed you right.
BY was done with aid, hooks were used, Bachar broke from traditions.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sep 25, 2013 - 02:03pm PT
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Curious David Roberts, and note that I am not attacking you in any way. But where do you stand on this rebolting of old routes, and what are you willing to do to see it to fruition? I have actually changed my position on all of this but can't seem to find anyone willing to pony up to their arguments, though many are fine with ripping folks from their keyboards. You'd almost think some were being insincere with their words . . .
JL
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 25, 2013 - 02:06pm PT
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JL...name names...who is advocating retrobolting old classic?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 25, 2013 - 02:48pm PT
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i am sincerely interested in the history of Tapestry. tell us ron.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sep 25, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
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JL...name names...who is advocating retrobolting old classic?
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It has repeatedly been said on this thread that:
A: No one owns the rock. Implication is that if present day climbers want to add bolts to old run out routes they have every right to do so, since no one owns the rock.
B: The first ascent party on most run out routes were being dishonest in engineering danger into routes that were not dangerous for them, given their experience. Today's climber's no longer need to prove anything in regards to danger so the obvious thing is to make the old routes less dangerous - add bolts.
C: The old "museum climbs" are largely going unclimbed. They are taking up prime real estate and there are many who want to climb them but can't justify the danger. Solution: Bring them up to modern safety standards and open up infrequently climbed but potentially classic routes to any climber who can handle the technical grade.
D: Modern day climbers put little value in danger and risk management at the highest level. In fact the idea itself sounds ludicrous given their orientation to the outdoors and to climbing. So the clear choice is to bolt up some of the best of the old infrequently done routes so they can be enjoyed by the many who would otherwise never try them.
These points have been brought up by many in this tread over the last few days and I agree on all counts. Our orientation to the old run out routes is dead in the water. No one cares about what it was, much less why. I'm fine with that. We had our fun.
It makes more sense now that the old routes become available to the modern climber rather than just loom there in mothballs, so to speak, getting done a few times a season, if at all.
I have suggested trying the rebolting strategy on a couple routes that, if they had decent pro, would probably be mega classic: Black Primo, and Barhar Yerian, routes well within the technical envelope of most any active, modern climber. But while people have spoken passionately about points A-D, no one seems willing to see these ideas through.
You tell me why?
JL
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Sep 25, 2013 - 02:57pm PT
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You tell me why?
Because it is going from one extreme to another. Any retrobolt action on something like BY will be chopped. The BY sees ascents on a yearly basis; it is a relevant route.
A rarely if ever repeated, run-out, 5.9 or 5.10 in a fairly trafficked area can be established as a retro bolt experiment.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Sep 25, 2013 - 03:00pm PT
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Because it's vandalism and they know it, lol. I once met a guy who was wheelchair bound, explaining how he wanted to see places like Yosemite too, so there should be access ramps everywhere. It's hard to argue with someone in a wheelchair against wheelchair ramps, but on the other hand we don't want the earth to be paved with roads and ramps. There should be natural places left alone. Maybe selfish in a way. I don't want to see gym climbers overrun the natural areas. Bringing routes down to that level makes climbing more accessible to the public, which means more crowds. I think the old trads will hold out for a few decades more, then will all die off and it will be a fight to keep everything from being gridbolted.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Sep 25, 2013 - 03:28pm PT
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...so why hasn't it been chopped?
There's a classic route on Power Dome, up at Courtright Reservoir, called Esto Power. 5.10d, R. The bolts were drilled from stances, so when you get to the third (maybe fourth?) bolt on the first pitch you're kind of run when you do the crux moves. Doing the crux rewards you with a thin ledge in your hands which is a dicey mantle / step-up to the drilling stance. Leading this pitch from one drilling stance to the next is a real experience, and the protection makes perfect sense.
Then a certain individual who shall remain nameless (and who was certainly sackless) added a bolt which is below the thin ledge. This bolt takes the commitment out of doing the crux, since you're looking right at it there about two moves away, it makes the mantle / step up trivial, and it ruins the character of the climb since it could not have been placed without aid.
It was about my fourth time doing this climb that I came across this added bolt. I was duly outraged and swore to chop it. But closer inspection revealed that it is a 3/8 button head, and some spalling of the rock occurred when it was placed. Removing this bolt would (will) leave significant damage to the rock which in my opinion cannot really be patched. Chopping added bolts is often a messy business which only compounds the vandalism of placing them in first place.
Just don't clip it then...
I've done this route a few times since the bolt appeared, declining to clip the chicken bolt as a matter of principle. All I can say is that it really intrudes on the experience. It really galls me to see one of the classic routes in such a beautiful area brought down like this. And today the history is forgotten, and climbers doing the route today will not even recognize the route was drilled from stances, they'll just complain about the "bad" bolting job and probably want to add more.
I agree with those who argue than certain poorly protected routes were not well thought out, and there could be a reasonable consensus to "fix" them if the result will be making something stupid into a classic. But I think these situations are far and few between and great care should be taken in this regard.
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