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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Sep 20, 2013 - 10:41pm PT
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What the hell^^^^^^^^^^^^^. The kid has lost it?
Judith Curry has an excellent essay that was just published in the Australian and posted on her website today. Click on The IPCC's "inconvenient truth" for her assessment of the state of climate change affairs.
http://judithcurry.com/
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Sep 21, 2013 - 11:35am PT
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You are beginning to sound Hitleresque Bruce. " The real problem, them". The meaning of "them" is what you classify as the denialists, just as with the jews an entire segment of society, in this case the majority,are to blame for all the ails. Do you really think Bruce, that just rolling over the denialists, in implementation of a "final solution", will solve the imagined climate problem?.
The only viable solution to our real problems, in our real world, is compromise and failing this war followed by subjugation or negotiated settlement. Why do the prominent mouthpeices of the CAGW movement reject all sensible compromise for the single minded and disastrous push for not ready for prime time renewables and taxation? The ball is in your guys court. Can you rationally explain to all why their is only one solution permissible?
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Sep 21, 2013 - 11:43am PT
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You are beginning to sound Hitleresque Bruce.
Can you rationally explain to all why their is only one solution permissible?
Oops, thread is done. Der Fuhrer has been invoked.
Perhaps you will be able to rationally understand the scientific debate when you learn proper English.
What do you say is the "one solution" being touted? From where I stand, there are multiple sources contributing to the problem needing multiple solutions...
But you B&W ignorami are unable to grasp that.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Sep 21, 2013 - 11:44am PT
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Well I think it should be more informed by physical science myself so if Rick wants to steer it back there so much the better.
Rick does not really want to steer it toward science. His "interest" in science is a pose dressed up with sciencey-sounding denialist talking points, which he would like to cite and paste. He has no interest or ability to read actual science. Two recent cases in point:
After Rick praised chronically-wrong Roy Spencer to the sky, I invited him to pick a single one of Roy's papers, read it, and discuss why he thought it was good. I even gave a link to Roy's most recent, post-dating Roy's satellite-temperature mistakes. Rick changed the subject.
When Rick demanded evidence about Antarctic CO2 and temperature, I explained some issues in my own words, then linked to three papers (2012 and 2013 in Science or Nature) giving state-of-the-art views of this topic. But Rick could not read or understand those ideas either, instead declaring
I see you cited abstracts of three comparatively recent papers that attempt to cast doubt on the accepted lag of CO2 to temps. I also see the lag still stands.
And then citing Ian Plimer of all people as an authority. George Montbiot has a good journalistic takedown of Plimer's falsehoods
Jones took up my charge and asked Plimer whether he stood by his claim that volcanoes produce more CO2 than all the world's cars and industries.
Plimer replied "I'm very heartened that a journalist is correcting me on my geology", then launched into a disquisition on how I know nothing about science. Both of us pressed him to answer the question. So Plimer said that neither of us had read his book. We both replied that we had and pressed him again.
Plimer tried to argue that the US Geological Survey only measured emissions from terrestrial volcanoes – not from submarine volcanoes. Jones, who had plainly done his homework, pointed out that a UK journalist (I think he was referring to the Guardian's James Randerson) had gone back to the USGS and asked them whether or not submarine volcanoes were included in its calculations. They were.
Plimer went off at a tangent, starting to list the numbers and kinds of submarine volcanoes. This, I soon found, was a characteristic tactic: when faced with a tricky situation, he starts throwing out random facts. I pointed out that he had been told many times that the USGS figures include submarine volcanoes: he was making a claim on national television that he should know is wrong.
Plimer's false claims have been exposed in peer-reviewed papers as well, notably this by Terry Gerlach writing in Eos. Gerlach also wrote a less technical piece for Earth magazine.
“Volcanoes add far more carbon dioxide to the oceans and atmosphere than humans.” So says geologist Ian Plimer of the University of Adelaide in his 2009 best seller “Heaven and Earth: Global Warming — the Missing Science.” With this assertion, Plimer brings volcanic carbon dioxide degassing front and center in the climate change debate, reviving and reinforcing this wildly mistaken notion.
Although discussions of volcanic carbon dioxide emissions make up less than 5 percent of “Heaven and Earth’s” text, the alleged predominance of volcanic over human carbon dioxide emissions is one of its most publicized takeaway messages. And one that will reverberate in the media and blogosphere — no matter how vociferously professionals who investigate volcanic carbon dioxide emissions bristle and huff about how appallingly at odds Plimer’s claim is with our research findings.
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AndyMan
Sport climber
CA
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Sep 21, 2013 - 04:31pm PT
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All you alarmists, fightened pussies and lack-of-warming-for-the-past-two-decades denialists probably haven't noticed it, but there's just been an all time record INCREASE in Arctic summer sea ice.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Sep 21, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
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Interesting, so no warming for two decades. Please tell us more AndyMan....
Does one year 'recovery' mean the trend is broken?
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Sep 21, 2013 - 06:18pm PT
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Hey Andy Man,do tell ,all time increase,like "ever".
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Sep 21, 2013 - 06:59pm PT
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I read the abstracts Larry. They were just rehashes of previous suppositions dressed up as studies. You guys have problems all over the board with the models projections, Antarctica just being one. Of course, you would elaborate on the zealots take down of Ian Plimer and Roy Spencer - it's always the same with any scientist in rebuttal. When you guys shed yourselves of the prominent mouthpeices of hysterics and start mixing in studies of natural negative feedback mechanisms perhaps the field will regain a bit of respectability. For now though, you have lost the populous- just look at Australia, Eastern Europe, and growing discontent in western Europe for the direction this is heading. Do you really think the reduction schemes stand a chance here in the U.S. or the developing nations?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Sep 21, 2013 - 07:17pm PT
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I read the abstracts Larry. They were just rehashes of previous suppositions dressed up as studies.
False. You're admitting you can't read or comprehend even the abstracts.
Of course, you would elaborate on the zealots take down of Ian Plimer and Roy Spencer
Missed the boat there too. You've failed repeatedly to take up any article Spencer has written, but let's pretend you're not posing and really want to now defend Ian Plimer against the "zeolot" attacks by other geologists I cited. A statement specifically at issue in the sources I quoted and you dismiss as "zealots" is Plimer's published claim that recent volcanoes emit more CO2 than humans. Plimer has been unable to give any source or calculation for this claim. Can you? Should be easy for you since you're sure this is just a zealot takedown.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Sep 21, 2013 - 08:08pm PT
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Here's the fellow Rick called a "zealot" because, in a peer-reviewed paper, he questioned Ian Plimer's declarations about volcanic CO2. Perhaps Rick can better explain his basis for making that accusation.
Terry Gerlach has carried out research on volcanic gases for over 40 years and published over 100 peer-reviewed studies on volcanic gases and volcano degassing. He holds BS and MS degrees in geology from the University of Wisconsin and a PhD in geology from the University of Arizona. He joined Sandia National Laboratories in 1975 where he worked until 1989 as a research geologist, including seven years as the supervisor of Sandia’s Geochemistry Division. In 1990, he joined the U.S. Geological Survey as Project Chief of the Volcano Emissions Project. During his career with the USGS, he and his project team carried out surveillance monitoring and basic research on restless and active volcanoes in California, Oregon, Washington, Alaska, Hawaii, Wyoming, the Philippines, and Mexico. He has published research on volcanic gas emissions at subduction zone arcs, hotspots, silicic caldera centers, and the mid-ocean ridge system. His research focuses on the processes of magma degassing in various volcanic settings and the interactions of volcanic gases with water in volcanic edifices, the development of techniques for measuring volcanic gas emissions, the atmospheric and environmental impacts of magmatic volatiles, and the global output of magmatic gases released by volcanoes—especially the global output of volcanic CO2. He is presently retired but remains active in volcanic gas research.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Sep 21, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
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Just more retorts of circular reasoning.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Sep 21, 2013 - 09:10pm PT
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That's easy Larry, this guy was ruined and his mind lost from decades in the government system. His takedown of Plimer was an intentional misrepresentation of what he was saying. Plimer, in his book Heaven and Earth, does not make specific claim to volcano's of the present era releasing significant amounts of CO2.Instead, his claim was that in geological eras like the end of the Permian and Cretaceous, two of the largest extinction events in earths history, huge and multi-millennium basaltic eruptions like the Siberian Traps and Deccan Traps released huge amounts of greenhouse gases like CO2 and SO2 into the atmosphere resulting in first a nuclear type winter with severe cooling and the extinction event, and then warming but not a runaway greenhouse event.CO2 has been in the many thousands parts per million ( versus the 398.5 ppm of present) in the atmosphere many , many times in earth's past without a runaway greenhouse event. There has also been times like the Ordivician that CO2 was 5600 ppm and the Earth was in the grips of a colossal glaciation.
I find it astounding Larry that you seem to be arguing that volcanics were not the principle source of high atmospheric GHG's in era's millions of years before humans were even a glint in gods eye. What are you trying to say Larry- that elevated CO2 levels are a completely natural result of Earth's warming from the little ice age and/or biological activity unrelated to man and geology? If so, you are arguing against your own case of CAGW.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Sep 21, 2013 - 10:00pm PT
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That's easy Larry, this guy was ruined and his mind lost from decades in the government system.
Except that's just your fantasy, one you made up to justify having said something false and stupid.
Plimer, in his book Heaven and Earth, does not make specific claim to volcano's of the present era releasing significant amounts of CO2.
Bullsh#t, Rick, is somebody feeding you this stuff or do you make it up on the spot? Try page 413 of Heaven and Earth, for instance, where Plimer writes that "Volcanoes produce more CO2 than the world's cars and industries combined." That is one of the declarations he is trying so hard to weasel away from in the TV interview. Note that he can't give a source, but he is not denying that he said it.
Or just read Wiki's synopsis of what Plimer has said on this point:
"Plimer has long argued[31] that volcanic eruptions release more carbon dioxide (CO2) than human activity; in particular that submarine volcanoes[32] emit huge amounts of CO2 and that the influence of the gases from these volcanoes on the Earth's climate is drastically underrepresented in climate models.[33] The United States Geological Survey has calculated that human emissions of CO2 are about 130 times larger than volcanic emissions, including submarine emissions.[34][35][36] The United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) stated that Plimer's claim "has no factual basis."[37] This was confirmed in a 2011 survey published in the Eos journal of the American Geophysical Union, which found that anthropogenic emissions of CO2 are 135 times larger than those from all volcanoes on Earth.[38]"
But then you go beyond fantasy, into what looks like lying. You can't tell what is real from what you are making up?
I find it astounding Larry that you seem to be arguing that volcanics were not the principle source of high atmospheric GHG's in era's millions of years before humans were even a glint in gods eye.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Sep 21, 2013 - 10:25pm PT
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Where is the specific reference to current volcanism producing more CO2 Larry. He doesn't say that, rather he says volcanoes produce more CO2 than cars or industry- on geological scales this is absolutely correct. Now, exactly how did all that CO2 get in the atmosphere in past geological era's, Larry? Are you confirming that warming naturally releases it from the biosphere? Once again, don't you think that kind of thinking nullifies the anthropogenic hypothesis? I must protest this kind of denial Larry, everyone already knows 3-8% of the modern era CO2 increase is anthropogenic. Everyone also knows this elevated CO2 has a mild warming effect (sensitivity estimates declining) and likewise partially attributable to man. Finally, everyone also knows that CAGW is dead, terminally hyped into oblivion. In poll after poll, citizens worldwide rate concern of global warming at or near the bottom of a selection of modern issues.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Sep 21, 2013 - 11:18pm PT
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Ok Mono, if that is an accurate transcription from a Plimer interview, that does seem to say current era. I didn't get that interpretation from his book. His argument in the book was that many times in the past CO2 levels were many times higher than the current without catastrophic consequences. The reason for these huge increases were most often huge basaltic flow eruptions. He also mentions many proxy records indicating that high CO2 content does not necessarily lead to high temps, but instead the reverse, if not caused by eruptions. I still have the interpretation that by denying huge CO2 increases by volcanism Chiloe is indicating that it a natural fluctuation of a warming Earth, therefore neither geologic nor anthropogenic.
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abrams
Sport climber
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Sep 21, 2013 - 11:36pm PT
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A riddle for you warmists
What do you call a plant that sprouts new growth after being covered
in glacial ice since the "Little Ice Age" more than 400 years ago?
If you're a scientist at the University of Alberta you call it pretty
darned exciting.
It's widely considered great news that, since 2004, the Teardrop Glacier
in the Canadian Arctic has been receding very fast and good riddance
for burying alive these sweet little plants.
The fun for scientists is that many of the plants being exposed have never
been studied before and are coming back to life. Important stuff hopefully
will be learned on how they did it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-22656239
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Sep 21, 2013 - 11:37pm PT
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this has got to be some fatard/leb collusion collaboration...
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Sep 21, 2013 - 11:44pm PT
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It has snowed at about 8800 feet here today, and moundhouse is COLD in a stiff and sometimes wet breeze. Great basin climate much cooler than average this year.
And much hotter just a couple months ago. Hmmm, record heat followed by record cold a few months later. It is probably just the sun or something.
(FWIW, snow was falling at ~6600' up here today, but didn't stick)
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