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bobinc
Trad climber
Portland, Or
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Sep 20, 2013 - 03:51pm PT
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I'd like to refocus our current "socialism" so we spend way less on aircraft carriers and tanks and more on actual legitimate alternatives to fossil fuels.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Sep 20, 2013 - 03:53pm PT
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Your a neo marxist ,socialist ,commie ,utopian,liberal,warmist.
Just had to see what that feels like. Feels like nothing.Really.
Great post the Fet
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Sep 20, 2013 - 04:10pm PT
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durp
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bobinc
Trad climber
Portland, Or
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Sep 20, 2013 - 04:17pm PT
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This is a species question, Chief, isn't it?
Modern life is comfortable, at least for some, and the comfortable folks don't want to give it up. How many of those folks feel like it's okay to deny the comfort to others? That's the (insert dollar sign here) question, and you yourself have hit the nail on the head on this issue for a long time.
So... it's a species question, isn't it?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 20, 2013 - 04:44pm PT
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how much does a rise in CO2 concentration raise global temperature. That answer requires a calculation, not a model.
FortMental,
That statement is true for a laboratory experiment, because we have a localized, isolated area in which to measure temperature changes, and we have control over all of the inputs.
For the earth, however, I can't tell you how much the earth's temperature will change for a given change in CO2 concentration without modeling, for at least two reasons. First, we cannot even measure "the earth's temperature" in any meaningful way without a model. There is no one location that can provide a meaningful point of measurement. Second, determination of the earth's temperature requires knowing more than greenhouse gas concentrations. We need to know initial conditions, solar activity, volcanic activity, etc. etc. Put another way, we lack a "control earth" where we can keep everything constant other than atmospheric greenhouse gas concentrations.
If the relationship between global temperature and atmospheric greenhouse gas concentrations merely required solving an equation with known parameters, we would know with certainty that about which we only have probabilistic knowledge. We know the process, and we know what happens in the small scale. Unfortunately, it's the big scale that matters.
John
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Sep 20, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
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imposing extremely higher taxes and penalties onto the Energy Co's
Extremely higher taxes and penalties? Sounds like you have been believing the right wing scare tactics.
The majority don't want higher taxes or penalties. They want the most efficient and sustainable ways to reduce CO2 emissions with the least negative impact on the economy. e.g. investing in alternative energy and efficiency is much better than trying to regulate reducing CO2. If the US has a lead in alternative energy and efficiency improvements (such as smart grid technology) not only do we reduce CO2 and global warming so the effects are less costly to our economy, but we take a lead in technology that can be sold to the rest of the world.
But of course you have people like the Koch brothers making billions of dollars off petrochemical energy, they like the status quo they don't want us investing in technologies that threaten their business. They have been so consumed by greed that they don't see they could be living fuller lives making the planet better for everyone instead of just trying to make as much money as possible. They hired the very same PR company that sowed doubt that cigarettes can cause cancer, who is spinning out all this B.S. to create doubt about AGW.
You can argue all you want about what we should do about AGW (and we should because that's a real debate we should be having) but to argue that it's not happening is almost as stupid as saying cigarettes can't cause cancer.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 20, 2013 - 05:22pm PT
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The majority don't want higher taxes or penalties. They want the most efficient and sustainable ways to reduce CO2 emissions with the least negative impact on the economy.
The Fet,
I agree that the majority want mild costs and maximum carbon reduction. Unfortunately, that trade-off doesn't come cheap (compare, for example, the proposed EPA rules on new coal-fired electric plants with what is required now). We're dealing with some rather costly trade-offs, with frightening consequences if we get it wrong.
It's partly for that reason that I find it particularly critical to divide the science from the politics. The more people understand the reality of the trade-off, the better decisions we make.
Unfortunately, too many of us don't trust the decision-making of the rest of us. This results in communications aimed at the general public containing spin rather than unvarnished science. Even the IPCC is subject to this criticism, because governments, not just scientists, have editorial input.
Whether we like it or not, we're dealing with an intellectually complex and challenging area, with expensive policy implications. Any attempt to make it seem simple, certain or cheap doesn't reflect the real choices we confront.
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 20, 2013 - 05:33pm PT
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How do you propose to measure the rate of change of temperature without measuring temperature itself? For that matter, how do you determine from the prehistorical geologic record what external inputs come from, say, solar activity?
John
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Sep 20, 2013 - 07:13pm PT
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Whether we like it or not, we're dealing with an intellectually complex and challenging area, with expensive policy implications.
Unfortunately, we are also dealing with ignorant fuktards who cloud the issue with misinformation and a refusal to even consider anything they don't already believe to be true. (Not you JE, obviously.)
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Sep 20, 2013 - 07:24pm PT
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A word about JE,He has brought some much needed balance and reality to this thread and forum.
I do not know you John,but you are a good man.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Sep 20, 2013 - 07:51pm PT
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Doesnt that just piss you off.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Sep 20, 2013 - 08:16pm PT
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Maybe,we shall see.
"GONNA",Is that like "if" or "ever"?
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Sep 20, 2013 - 08:19pm PT
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What are we going to get again by switching from the least expensive electricity source to a more expensive alternative?
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Sep 20, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
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Why were those alternatives more expensive again?
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Sep 20, 2013 - 08:27pm PT
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A word about JE,He has brought some much needed balance and reality to this thread and forum.
I do not know you John,but you are a good man.
Word. I've never met the guy. I called him names years ago and I regret it. He has shown himself to be intelligent, reasonable, thoughtful, and patient. People like JE make the world a better place.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Sep 20, 2013 - 08:33pm PT
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Go fuk yourself you ignorant fuktard.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Sep 20, 2013 - 09:24pm PT
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Be careful little boy. At the rate things aren't going for you all, you will be regretting all the shet talking by this time next year.
Wonderful... is the Chief and his commune down in Bishop declaring another Jihad on scientists, starting sometime in the next year? Headquarters located somewhere around here...
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