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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Sep 19, 2013 - 02:41pm PT
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My model that says I'll be struck by lightning is wildly inaccurate on a daily basis, but extremely precise on a ten-year basis.
Nice analogy.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Sep 19, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
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Nice analogy.
Yeah, well put. Thanks.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 19, 2013 - 03:36pm PT
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Oh cry us a river Bruce.
Ron A is an expert in taxidermy.
When you get done crying on Supertopo everyday and finally die of a heart attack from over taxing your silly brain over what Ron thinks everyday ....
Ron will then make you into a stuffed Bruce taxidermy for all to see ......
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Sep 19, 2013 - 03:43pm PT
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Ron, you are so full of sh#t your eyes must be brown. You want the reality of polar bear population numbers? Biggest influence was a tight ban on almost all hunting in USSR, US, and Canada with very limited exceptions.
Add to that, the numbers all these deniers try to cite as baseline all come down to one WAG from the soviets back in the 50s.
Actually, here you go, knew I'd read this some years ago:
Global warming deniers said the decision was ludicrous. They cited a polar bear population a five-fold increase since the 1970s, a doubling since the 1950s, a quadrupling since the 1960s.
After wading through about thirty such references from readers of our CNN blog and hearing them from multiple radio and TV pundits, I got to thinking: Are any of these numbers true? And where do they come from? I embarked on a global quest, traveling by phone, email and Google, to find the truth. My first stop was Bjorn Lomborg's 2007 book, "Cool It: The Skeptical Environmentalist's Guide to Global Warming." Lomborg, the Danish economist whose work provides a torrent of talking points for Conservative pundits, says there were "probably 5,000" polar bears in the 1960's.
The book's footnotes cryptically attribute the Number to "Krauss, 2006."
Lomborg confirmed for me that the "Krauss" in question is Clifford Krauss, a reporter for The New York Times, who wrote on May 27, 2006, about the conflict between polar bear protectors and trophy hunters: "Other experts see a healthier population. They note that there are more than 20,000 polar bears roaming the Arctic, compared to as few as 5,000 40 years ago." http:// www.nytimes.com/2006/05/27/world/americas/27bears. html?pagewanted=2&_r=1
Krauss, now a Houston-based correspondent for The Times, told me he couldn't recall the source of the 5,000 number, but said that he understood the number to be "widely accepted." Lomborg also emailed me a reference for another, different figure he said he'd discovered after the book's publication: A report from the Soviet Ministry of Agriculture's S.M. Uspensky, who surveyed nesting sites on a portion of Russian turf and extrapolated an Arctic-wide population of 5,000 to 8,000 in 1965. http://pbsg. npolar.no/docs/Proc01_1965.pdf
(Let us pause for a moment of irony: Critics of the polar bear decision, predominantly political Conservatives, are apparently placing their chips on a fact that traces its lineage back to two info sources: The New York Times and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.)
Here's a quick tour of a few other reports of polar bear prosperity:
In a May 20 Los Angeles Times opinion piece, Jonah Goldberg took a whack at what he sees as quasi-religious overtones to conservation. Part of his backup? "Never mind that polar bears are in fact thriving their numbers have quadrupled in the last 50 years." http://www.latimes.com/news/ opinion/comentary/la-oe-goldberg20-2008may20,0,315197. column?track=rss
James Taylor of the Heartland Institute cited a London Daily Telegraph article that "confirmed the ongoing polar bear population explosion" in a Sept 11, 2007, blog. http://www. heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId!966 and http://www.tele graph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/03/09/wpolar09. xml
But the March 9, 2007, story that Taylor referenced actually makes no mention of global bear populations quoting one scientist as observing strong growth in one local population, in Davis Strait; and another scientist reporting global warmingrelated declines in the local population in Hudson's Bay.
Taylor adds a new number into the mix from a March 26, 2008, posting at the Heartland site: "The global polar bear population has doubled since 1970, despite legal polar bear hunting." http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=22994
A May 12 New York Post op-ed piece by S.T. Karnick introduces still another number this time with a source:
"The world polar-bear population is at a modern high and growing. Mitch Taylor, a polar-bear biologist with Canada's Federal Provincial Polar Bear Technical Committee, notes that the bears now number about 24,000 up about 40 percent from 1974, when fears arose about the bear's ability to survive over hunting by Canadian Eskimos and aboriginals." http://www.nypost. com/seven/05122008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/bear_baloney_110540.htm?page=0
From James Delingpole, a Times of London blogger, similar numbers, but different dates. And no source. "In 1950, let us not forget, there were about 5,000 polar bears. Now there are 25,000."http:// www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_con tributors/article2852551.ece
When we get to the retail level, the Arctic Urban Myth turns truly funky. We blogged about the polar bear ruling on CNN's SciTechBlog, and about 30 of the 350 responses cited some variation of the number. Here are some examples:
"Common Sense: Who are we kidding. There were 5,000 bears in 1970 and now there are 26,000. Most populations are growing. This is obvious global warming politics."
"Jay Merr: The global population of polar bears is 22,000, about double what it was just four decades ago. The environmentalists have taken control of the government and global warming is the scam of the century."
"Gary: There are 5 times more polar bears now, than there was in 1960. Where is the problem?"
"PJ: Fact: the polar bear population is larger than in the 1970s up from 12,000 or less in 1960s to 25,000 today; might as well call white Americans 'threatened' their population is going down."
"PJ: They don't need protection at all, their population has increased more since the 1970s than the human population of any country on earth!"
But polar bear researchers say those old estimates were no better than guesses. Steven Amstrup, who led the USGS research on the current status of polar bears, emailed me from the field: "How many bears were around then, we don't really know because the only studies of bears at that time were in their very early stages people were just beginning to figure out how we might study animals scattered over the whole Arctic in difficult logistical situations. Some estimated that world population might have been as small as 5000 bears, but this was nothing more than a WAG. The scientific ability to estimate the sizes of polar bear populations has increased dramatically in recent years."
(Editor's note: "WAG" is scientific jargon for "Wild-Ass Guess.")
Andrew Derocher of the University of Alberta added, "I have seen the figure of 5,000 in the 1960/70s but it is impossible to give it any scientific credibility. No estimation of any population was attempted until the early 1970s and even then, this was done very crudely for perhaps 10% of the global population and the estimates were highly questionable."
Thor Larsen of Norway's University of Life Sciences was actively involved in bear research back then. He recalls "Most data on numbers from the late 1960s and early 1970s were indeed anecdotal, simply because proper research was lacking. As far as I can remember, we did stick to a world-wide 'guestimate' of 20-25,000 bears in these years."
Another veteran bear researcher, Ian Stirling, emailed me, "Any number given as an estimate of the total population at that time would simply have been a guess and, in all likelihood, 5,000 was almost certainly much too low."
These and other scientists agree that polar bear populations have, in all likelihood, increased in the past several decades, but not five-fold, and for reasons that have nothing to do with global warming. The Soviets, despite their horrendous environmental legacy on many issues, banned most polar bear hunting in 1956. Canada and the U.S. followed suit in the early 1970s with limited exceptions for some native hunting, and permitted, highpriced trophy hunts. And a curtailment of some commercial seal hunting has sparked a seal population explosion angering fishermen, but providing populations in eastern Canada and Greenland with plenty of polar bear chow, leading in turn to localized polar bear population growth in spite of the ice decline.
The scientists also caution that we still don't have a firm count on these mobile, remote, supremely camouflaged beasts. All this uncertainty over the numbers past and present even gave some conservative bloggers pause.
Human Events editor Terry Jeffrey acknowledged the absolute uncertainty of polar bear numbers in a May 21 blog. Even so, isn't that reason to do nothing? he asked. "Before anybody tries to change the world to save polar bears
somebody should figure out how many polar bears there are."
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Sep 19, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
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I guess I would explain it like this. Suppose the chance of being hit by lightning at a particular spot on any given day is 1 in 1,000. Even though the probability of being struck on any single day is small (i.e. .001), I wouldn't care to live on that spot, because the probability of being struck at least once in, say, ten years is quite high (l.e. >.999). My model that says I'll be struck by lightning is wildly inaccurate on a daily basis, but extremely precise on a ten-year basis.
Sorry but your analogy is trivial and not helpful--your "model" is not "wildly inaccurate on a daily basis," assuming the probability you listed is in fact something like the actual probability (unless you'd like to set up a really bad "model.")
If you think that noting that an event with a low probability of happening over any given time may have a high probability of occurring over a longer stretch of time is profound and somehow supports the warmists agenda, man, more money has been wasted on this stuff than I thought!
Many posts ago I noted that a leading thinker (Nassim Taleb) believes that these models are crap and are fundamentally flawed--not just in their current incarnation, but at their core.
I was mocked by Ed for not knowing enough to even evaluate Taleb's claim. Who knows, but Taleb at least believes that his arguments are comprehensible to laypeople--that's why he wrote his books.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Sep 19, 2013 - 04:33pm PT
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a leading thinker (Nassim Taleb)
Bro, a guy wanking about black swan financial market events isn't what the rest of the world considers a "leading thinker", particularly actual stats guys who laugh him out of the room. Even most of the real world market boys, which you seem to fancy yourself, don't respect the guy.
"Robert Lund, a mathematics professor at Clemson University, writes that in Black Swan, Taleb is "reckless at times and subject to grandiose overstatements; the professional statistician will find the book ubiquitously naive
Aaron Brown, an author, quant and finance professor at Yeshiva and Fordham Universities, said that "the book reads as if Taleb has never heard of nonparametric methods, data analysis, visualization tools or robust estimation."
When you grow up a little and get beyond the wannabe austrian/libertarian hedge fund circle jerkers, get back to us.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Sep 19, 2013 - 04:34pm PT
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Ahh Larry, Chiloe et al. No we don't like our doom straight and gloomy from anyone, least of all that jokester Hanson. Please Larry, inform us all of the definitive proof, that absent major volcanism, that atmospheric CO2 increase precedes global temp increases. If you and all the Base's in the world can not do this then you had better start looking for natural cause rather than angling for increased taxation through doom and gloom misuse of science.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Sep 19, 2013 - 04:59pm PT
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Ah ,just what I thought ,discredit NASA,I can also post up the same from the NOAA.
What can you all post up ?Spencer,Curry,Christy.How's about Limbaugh?
What were there 47 names on the list of NASA people against the science.
Not bad seeing how there are 18,000 employees at NASA.Way less than 3%.
Yeah they are being phased out at NASA. That must tarnish their data and science ,aye?
And how about these very accurate leaks of the AR5 that Chef has been cuffing a load over.Really,you are counting your eggs before they hatch,Dude.http://climate.nasa.gov/climate_resource_center/10
You have been called out.Please continue your BS.We all need laughs.
Great post JEleazarian.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Sep 19, 2013 - 04:59pm PT
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Bro, a guy wanking about black swan financial market events isn't what the rest of the world considers a "leading thinker", particularly actual stats guys who laugh him out of the room. Even most of the real world market boys, which you seem to fancy yourself, don't respect the guy.
"Robert Lund, a mathematics professor at Clemson University, writes that in Black Swan, Taleb is "reckless at times and subject to grandiose overstatements; the professional statistician will find the book ubiquitously naive
Aaron Brown, an author, quant and finance professor at Yeshiva and Fordham Universities, said that "the book reads as if Taleb has never heard of nonparametric methods, data analysis, visualization tools or robust estimation."
Interesting (sorta)--I assume you took those quotes about Taleb from wikipedia (or if not, something linked to or from wikipedia, otherwise it would be an interesting coincidence).
Anyone can read his Wikipedia bio and decide for himself whether describing Taleb as a "leading thinker" is accurate--I'll stand by it, and I suppose so would the prestigious academic institutions with which he is and has been affiliated. And if we want to look at what others say about him, there are plenty of laudatory statements that outweigh the negative ones in your post.
That doesn't mean that his view that climate change models are probably worthless is right, but I don't think your ad hominem attack on him is a good one, even if we may like ad hominem attacks now and then.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nassim_Nicholas_Taleb
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Sep 19, 2013 - 04:59pm PT
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Ron, the hunting bans were put in place in the 50s - 70s, as you can easily verify as quoted above. Long before AGW was on the public radar.
Yes, the quotes are from wiki, the larger point from my own experience in both reading his crap and via the assessments of my contacts who, combined, are running about 6B AUM. Leading thinker? Laughable at best.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Sep 19, 2013 - 05:16pm PT
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Please Larry, inform us all of the definitive proof, that absent major volcanism, that atmospheric CO2 increase precedes global temp increases.
Please, Rick, instead of supercilious writing from the certainty of your blogs, step outside and look up recent research -- much of which has been mentioned repeatedly on this thread. Here's what I wrote the last time this zombie argument came up. Don't recall? You were there.
Earlier Antarctic studies concluded that, at the end of the last glaciation, Antarctic temperatures began to rise several hundred years before there was a global rise in CO2. The zombie argument is (approximately): because temperature rose before CO2, this somehow disproves the theory of anthropogenic climate change. Belief in that zombie has become a durable test for whether people actually read any science, or have just ingested and are repeating sciency talking points from blogs, etc. that agree with their politics.
It's a zombie because in the science literature this is not a live argument. For a bunch of well-known reasons, such as
CO2 is known to be both a forcing and a feedback for warming. If warming starts for other reasons (e.g., orbital) this will increase ocean outgassing, as well as expose and thaw permafrost, each of which releases CO2 (also methane) that then becomes a feedback to enhance warming. GHG feedback is a chief mechanism by which small orbital-related variations can lead to large climate changes like starting or ending an ice age. But no one claims that CO2 change has to initiate all climate change in the first place. For one thing, there would have to be a source for the "new" CO2.
CO2 is well mixed in the atmosphere so the Antarctic CO2 can be taken for a global indicator. However, Antarctic temperature is not a global indicator, it's mainly Antarctic. So when Antarctic temperatures warm or cool, that does not necessarily tell us what the mid-latitudes, tropics or far North were doing.
More specifically, a recent paper by Shakun et al. (2012) found that for reasons involving ocean circulation, southern hemisphere began warming before CO2 started to rise, but the northern hemisphere warmed after CO2 rose.
However, Parrenin et al. take a fresh look at the timing itself. How do we know when CO2 rose, and when temperature did? Turns out to be trickier than it sounds because the CO2 measurements (based on gas trapped in the ice) and the temperature estimates (based on isotope ratios within the ice itself) are dated by different methods, not previously well calibrated to fit together.
A few references:
Parrenin et al. (2013) "Synchronous Change of Atmospheric CO2 and Antarctic Temperature During the Last Deglacial Warming", Science.
Shakun et al. (2012) "Global warming preceded by increasing carbon dioxide concentrations during the last deglaciation", Nature.
Schmitt et al. (2012) "Carbon Isotope Constraints on the Deglacial CO2 Rise from Ice Cores", Science.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Sep 19, 2013 - 05:25pm PT
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blahblah, our D-K poster boy, apparently has a short memory about previous discussions of Taleb on this thread. I really don't like to keep quoting myself this way, but it seems the best response to silly declarations that people make over and over, forgetting what was said the last time. So here's what I said awhile back, not relying on Wikipedia even slightly.
I watched Taleb give a talk on his ideas at the American Geophysical Union meetings in San Francisco last fall. That's an audience you can't bluster with generalities about science, and he didn't try. Most people seemed interested and accepting with respect to Taleb's basic premise that outliers happen and they matter, but when questions came they were skeptical about his claims to be able to predict them.
In 2007 after the book came out, with its broad-brush attack against statistics, The American Statistician ran a special issue of reviews. That too is an audience you can't bluster, and Taleb had to defensively reply that he'd aimed his arguments (against experts) at the general public but now they were being judged by professional standards instead. The statistical critique, like the AGU audience, had no trouble believing that outliers exist but had no patience for the claim that statisticians don't understand this -- there are whole branches of the field devoted to them, which Taleb evidently did not know about. He's since grown wiser in his generalizations, I think.
Westfall and Hilbe wrote a passage that seemed insightful to me at the time, partly because I've been writing about outliers and non-normal distributions myself for more than 20 years:
"It seems, therefore, that Taleb has fallen victim to his own curse: having observed a few statisticians with an outlier-avoidance mindset (let us call these statisticians "White Swans"), he then violates Hume's anti-inductive admonishment and assumes that all statisticians are "White Swans." What makes Taleb's error particularly egregious is that his sample of statisticians from which he makes such generalizations is both small and systematically biased!"
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bobinc
Trad climber
Portland, Or
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Sep 19, 2013 - 05:42pm PT
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Looks like you chose the wrong federally-funded job to retire from, Chief.
At least he worked at his until age 70 or so.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Sep 19, 2013 - 05:46pm PT
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the ban on importations happened in either 2001 or 2
So what? Importation has f*#k-all to do with population aside from cutting down on a few wealthy americans who'd go somewhere else to have their brave adventure of shooting one down from half a mile away..like James Hetfield of Metallica, and bring it back to have one of you corpse humpers stuff it. Hunting bans, as I stated, did and do have substantial impacts on population. Are you really that dense?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 19, 2013 - 05:50pm PT
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If you and all the Base's in the world can not do this then you had better start looking for natural cause rather than angling for increased taxation through doom and gloom misuse of science.
Rick, the question of what to do differs from the science involved. What to do is an economic issue. Despite the existence of the Nobel Prize in "Economic Science," I doubt that many who've actually worked as professional economists, and particularly as econometricians, think economics and science belong in the same phrase without some word of negation. We may employ the scientific method, but our models remain crude because we seldom can do meaningful experiments, particularly at the macroeconomic level.
I thus find it intellectually reasonable for someone to argue that trying to reduce carbon emissions isn't worth the cost, since measuring the marginal cost and marginal benefit of carbon emissions has proved quite daunting. That leaves a lot of room for differing opinions. Most of the arguments I read against the climate science, in contrast, improperly mix (or to use a verb I hate, conflate) economic considerations with scientific ones.
John
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Sep 19, 2013 - 05:57pm PT
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I watched Taleb give a talk on his ideas at the American Geophysical Union meetings in San Francisco last fall. That's an audience you can't bluster with generalities about science, and he didn't try. Most people seemed interested and accepting with respect to Taleb's basic premise that outliers happen and they matter, but when questions came they were skeptical about his claims to be able to predict them.
Repeating your nonsense doesn't make it true.
Your statement that Taleb claimed to be able to predict black swans shows that you don't understand his points, at all. (I suppose it's possible that you heard him give a talk where he argued against everything he's published. That seems a little unlikely--but I don't have any "statistics" to evaluate that.)
EC has apparently read at least some of Taleb's stuff and doesn't like it. That's fine, although some apparently smart people find merit.
Our friend Chiloe clearly doesn't understand it in the slightest, which makes his certainty about others ignorance all the more amusing.
Keep on with your taunts, but remember the admonition: Physician, heal thyself.
Edit--
Bruce--check out his book The Black Swan and read for yourself; I don't need to write a book report, and your getting my take on his take wouldn't do it justice. I believe I provided cites when this first came up, and his book has an index. I'd offer to mail you my copy if you'd mail it back if you can't get it at a library and don't want to buy, but I see you're in CA, so I'm guessing that's not really viable.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Sep 19, 2013 - 05:58pm PT
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We may employ the scientific method, but our models remain crude because we seldom can do meaningful experiments
I think in your field it's much less about experiementation than it is about the generally chaotic system you're trying to model. Too many inter-related factors with changing feedback sensitivities. It's like a giant multi-variable, multi-order differential equation.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 19, 2013 - 06:07pm PT
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Largely true, El Cap. Most of us think it's like trying to solve a system of n equations for n plus about a million variables.
John
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Sep 19, 2013 - 06:09pm PT
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I see the 'it's all natural' argument is being pushed again....
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