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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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You guys still dont get it.
Half Dome is the most sacred rock on Earth!
Don't fuk it up with bolts!
Period.
Go to Utah and fuk that place up.
Pleasze, not Yosemite!
Enuff tourists have already messed it up.
Rocjk climbers are becom0onmg tourists.
This is a bad trend.
But it all started with Senbtinal, watch Western Frontiers, r5emember the guy swinging the goldline from one dome to the next?
That was the first controversey, and it still goes on!
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Sean Jones
climber
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Healyje,
You're right about bigger fish to fry. Ther's so many children starving in our world and so many other things or "real" mountains to climb.
Thanks for reminding me to get back to myself and put my time where it really needs to be.
Again, THANKS !!!
Sean.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona, Spain
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bump
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sean,
Those comments weren't directed at you or even Growing Up in particular - they were directed solely at the increasing use of that argument to justify any use of bolts at all. I haven't heard you use the argument unless I missed it.
The issue I have with Growing Up is what I stated relative to the notions of 'development' and 'community service'. That, and the fact that many if not most of our 'practices' start out employed on cutting edge lines - and then quickly propogate back to every grade, condition, and rock without reasoned use or moderation. As others have said, and I can't argue against, the train has left the station on many aspects of this discussion, but Growing Up establishes a clear precedent of a magnitude that has not really seen as to date. In that respect it will no doubt accelerate that train to some degree or another.
The argument you, Doug, and Karl are others are using, which Doug summed up nicely with 'safety monitor' vs. 'fun hog' would be fine accept for the fact that it can, is, and will be used to justify and rationalize any manner of things. And in combination with 'development' and 'community service' there really is no limit to what can be claimed to be justified on public lands. The idea that the use of this rationale for rap-bolting and sport climbing in general can somehow be constrained to 'appropriate' uses is not at all borne out by our own history - the train will more likely end up in a wreck of proportions even Bob ends up dismayed with before it comes to rest. Will you guys and Growing Up be responsible? No, clearly it's human nature at the controls, but I suspect this does smooth the tracks ahead a bit.
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Dr. Rock
Ice climber
Castle Rock
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He who litters Half Dome , will someday pay the Ultimate Price.
Asd part iroquoi indian, I have to say that I totally object to these vandels actions, they should be arrested, like Dano, only he deeerved tbe set free , because he is a Indian Stud.
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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All big rocks are sacred. Even little rocks have spirits in them.
And yes, Buggs did gag at the Cookie.......
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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"In other words, if you didn't have a rope from the top, you'd have to climb the thing?"
Bwah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Bruce wrote
"It is clear to me that Sean Jones' route on SFHD was done in much poorer style than any of the other FA's on that wall. Maybe his style created a route that is climbable by more people, but the issue for me is that he used a poorer style than his predecessors"
I don't know how clear that is. "much" poorer style with 8 ground up 5.12 pitches, only a tiny bit of aid with no heads and no pins? Was Harding's route in better style with its bat-hook ladders up no line of weakness and a rescue to boot? Why? Because it was early on? What about that argument of saving the routes for the time when they could be done right? Putting up a free route of that scale is a different animal in a sense, and here's why:
The Warbler wrote
"Freeclimbing walls is different, and fairly new in Yosemite really, at least in the 15 pitch plus range. The Hubers work their El Cap masterpieces from the top down, and do so because it's the only practical way to route find and work out the freeclimbing on the upper sections. Their goal is to find and free a line on a huge wall, and they do what it takes to prepare themselves and the route for a final ascent. That doesn't involve rapbolting on El Cap partly because most of what they're climbing is cracks, but their top down methods have gone unquestioned, to my knowledge. Other Valley free wall climbs have been done that way also - with no fuss from the community. "
As far as I can tell, this route is hardly a new standard of tactic. Arcturus was just freed on Half Dome using rap-bolting and top-down tactics. I don't know how many of the new bolts on free variations on El Cap were placed from hooks or stances or ground up but I'd bet VERY FEW. Is it really so much better style to just "Don't ask, don't tell?"
El Cap has been festooned with thousands of feet of fixed lines in the recent trend of freeing aid routes. We do need to talk about spoiling the adventure of others by leaving fixed lines up during times when they aren't needed, and that discussion has begun on other threads in the past.
HealyJ, it's true that issues can't just be dismissed with the wave of a hand, but the seriousness of an issue, in many cases, is pretty subjective and needs to be taken into account as well. Is rap bolting worse than power bolting? Was hang-dogging worse than drilling from hooks?
When does style depart from a personal choice and become a community crime?
Peace
Karl
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WanderlustMD
Trad climber
DC Area (it's as bad as you've heard)
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Sean, I think some (or lots) of us would be interested in a topo (I know this was mentioned previously).
This is an interesting issue, not sure where I stand. Both sides make good arguments.
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poop*ghost
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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I'm just here to post my name in this veryyyy important thread.
:-o
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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This question was asked before, and seemingly unanswered (correct me if I am wrong):
What is the bolt count (anchors inc./ not inc.) on this fine homage to the people of the climbing world ?
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TradIsGood
Chalkless climber
the Gunks end of the country
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coz,
Why are you arguing about the rules of this competition? The rules haven't been written. Some of the players don't even think it is a competition.
You look like a guy in the middle of a football field with a bat and a glove, figuratively speaking, of course.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Coz wrote: I do not care if people approve of my behavior or not, I simply think what you did was wrong in my book, and by the laws of nature.
If you don't... why should Sean worry about anyone approving of his behavior??
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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El Cap has been festooned with thousands of feet of fixed lines in the recent trend of freeing aid routes. We do need to talk about spoiling the adventure of others by leaving fixed lines up during times when they aren't needed, and that discussion has begun on other threads in the past. --Karl Baba
I could not agree more! A line of bolts 1,000 feet up (or 100 feet up for that matter) is invisible but walking around the base of EC in the spring and seeing lines hanging "until they return" is an eyesore.
Back on GU... whatever I may feel about the FA, I see NO VALUE in yanking the bolts. They're there. They exist. The route exists and always will (okay, for you geologically-inclied pundits... not always.) Yankin' 'em does not erase the route, it only lengthens this thread. If they get yanked I'll put a few postcards on the line to say the route will return.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Fattrad--
What do you think your own contributions to this discussion have done for your position in the community?
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Fat wrote: You ask why? Because in my brief time in the world, I've learned that the quality of one's life is measured by the number of friends you have and the amount of respect one has in the "community". Seems that Sean and Doug have lost some of that difficult to earn respect.
I say good riddance...if they judge Sean & Doug on only this issue and not the collective of their lives.
I will continue to respect Doug for all he has done for climbing. He seems like a wonderful human being.
Don't know Sean but from what I read he also seems to a kind and caring person who loves his family and the sport of climbing. They have commimited no crime...period.
Also I glad my close friends don't think like you.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Werner, If the Vedic Theory is correct, a Quadroquark--composed of 4 Quarks/Dvyanaks--will be discovered. This would imply, 2 Anu = 1 Dvyanak may be incorrect. This could be true since 1 Dvyanak is part of the composition of vayu. Perhaps, then, vayu is a combination of 2 Dvyanak. Anyways, the point needs clarification.
Much like a topo of GU would help in the clarification of the route.
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WBraun
climber
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Fattrad
I haven't lost one inkling of respect for Sean, Doug, wildone, Caylor, the girl (sorry if I forgot your name) and any others that were on that gowing up project.
I respect the right to independent free will to act and choose.
Independent free will is impossible for mortals to stop.
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jstan
climber
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Well, I am beginning to lose respect. The problem is right there in front of everyone and no one has the sack to look it in the face.
We need, consciously, to leave room for each other.
We don't leave room for others when we feel everyone can change any piece of rock as they damn well please. A society is formed when individuals leave room for each other.
Even apes know that.
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